LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Matt R: stop picking on poor fallguy! His giant walls of texts worshipping Jordan are completely normal and rational behavior!
Also Matt R: you guys all sound like fat basement dwellers.
Can't make this stuff up.
For a while he was calling a me a fat basement dweller, that was funny since currently I live about 44 floors above the basement.
I would also suggest that you let go of this hierarchical view of the world (what's wrong with being a janitor? why is that a punchline?) - given your likely place on the totem pole, that type of thinking only makes you feel insecure and unhappy. There's nothing wrong with having a lower-paying job, we need people of all kinds for the society to function.
Matt R. can't fathom being wrong about something. Comes with being elitist.
At the time, if I knew the Allen shot was the miracle it takes for Lebron to win multiple titles with a team, then I wouldn't have cared and would've been amused at the shot.. "oh look, this bum brand of ball is actually getting the miracle it needs to win multiple titles with a team and not mostly lose with a team"
but I didn't know that Lebron was that bad at the time - only after I actually started comparing Lebron and MJ's game did I notice stark differences that led to vastly different team ceilings/Finals records..
In 2013, I hadn't contemplated the type of player that Lebron was, so it hadn't occurred to me that Lebron was a ball-dominator that couldn't shoot or play off-ball effectively.. I only realized these things after I started to compare Lebron and MJ and the differences jumped out at me when I actually started comparing them.. It was amazing how much crappier I found Lebron to be - a simpleton ball-dominator that never really learned how to WIN (chemistry, brand of ball), and only learned how to team-hop (all-star team strategy - talent-based winning).. His "decision" and the subsequent "titles" made him a vastly overrated player that never really learned how to win.
Ultimately, MJ and Kobe were good to win many titles with 1 team but fans punish them for it by saying "can't win without Pippen" or "can't win without Pau/Shaq"..... Otoh, Lebron's inability to win many titles with 1 team gets rewarded by team-hopping and having fans say he can win with more than 1 team... The reality is that MJ's skillset was good enough to win with chemistry, so he didn't need more help/talent, while Lebron's skillset cannot build great chemistry, so he needs more help, team-hopping and can't win many titles with 1 team (but gets rewarded for it)
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The Kobe worship is so weird given that he's literally a worse 3 point shooter than LeBron over a large sample, which is not great since LeBron supposeddly "can't shoot."
Kobe literally shot his team out of games when he was cold and his brutal performance was the main reason the Lakers got destroyed by the Pistons in 2004.
Pure delusion.
It's always clear as day how little someone knows about basketball when they reduce their analysis of the game down to BPM. But its not surprising you are a simple box score watcher and don't actually watch NBA games.
Let's have a rundown about little Matt R. knows about basketball:
- Claims Jamal Murray is mediocre as a player.
- Says the 2016 Warriors are overrated.
- Says Jordan prevented Tim Duncan from winning in the 90s (When Tim Duncan did in fact win in 1999 and was a rookie in 1998)
- Claims
You forgot
-Claims LeBron never won a title with zero other all-stars/all-nba players (did it in 2016)
For Reference Purposes.
The OFFICIAL Matt R. Batting 0 in this thread list:
- Claims Jamal Murray is mediocre talent.
- Says the 2016 Warriors are overrated.
- Says Jordan prevented Tim Duncan from winning in the 90s (When Tim Duncan did in fact win in 1999 and was a rookie in 1998)
- Claims LeBron would have trouble in the 80s.
- Claims LeBron never won a title with zero other all-stars/all-nba players (did it in 2016)
I am sure this list is probably 3x as long if we compiled all the bad takes he has produced over the years. But we will be adding to this list as time goes by.
The Kobe worship is so weird given that he's literally a worse 3 point shooter than LeBron over a large sample, which is not great since LeBron supposeddly "can't shoot."
Kobe literally shot his team out of games when he was cold and his brutal performance was the main reason the Lakers got destroyed by the Pistons in 2004.
Pure delusion.
Kobe worship runs parallel with Jordan worship. PPG and iso scoring is how the casuals enjoy watching basketball. So the 2 players that embody that essence the most gets worshipped.
They hate basketball when it involves multiple passes and some non star player scores, because they don't understand what is happening.
It's why the Jordan stans have zero love for Luka Doncic and Jokic. In fact twog / fallguy hates Luka.
I guess it’s hard to differentiate a improvise Hail Mary shot out of the blue and a clearly carefully design play put in action .
Also Paxson vs the Suns.
Kobe worship runs parallel with Jordan worship. PPG and iso scoring is how the casuals enjoy watching basketball. So the 2 players that embody that essence the most gets worshipped.
They hate basketball when it involves multiple passes and some non star player scores, because they don't understand what is happening.
It's why the Jordan stans have zero love for Luka Doncic and Jokic. In fact twog / fallguy hates Luka.
Well I can put that stupid notion to rest.
Jordan = GOAT
I have all the love for guys like Luka and Jokic. Amazing players.
+1
loved magic and bird too …
Kobe worship runs parallel with Jordan worship. PPG and iso scoring is how the casuals enjoy watching basketball. So the 2 players that embody that essence the most gets worshipped.
They hate basketball when it involves multiple passes and some non star player scores, because they don't understand what is happening.
It's why the Jordan stans have zero love for Luka Doncic and Jokic. In fact twog / fallguy hates Luka.
Congrats, this post makes the top 10 of stupidest posts in this thread
Well I can put that stupid notion to rest.
Jordan = GOAT
I have all the love for guys like Luka and Jokic. Amazing players.
No its actually spot on.
I don't see you as a Jordan worshipper, you just have a preference for GOAT and that's fine.
Kobe worship is heavily ingrained in his heavy iso scoring and "take over the game" mentality. Regardless of how many games he shot his team into a L.
A large % of Jordan worshippers worship Jordan for his PPG and high volume scoring.
The irony of him posting this immediately after saying someone else has bad takes is not lost on the readers.
There is no irony.
Kobe Bryant worship comes heavily from his constant love of iso scoring, which is aesthetic to casual observers.
A large % of Jordan worshippers come exactly from that vein.
LeBron being a vastly superior floor general, passer doesn't matter because PPG and iso scoring is the most important metric.
Your friend TWOG literally hates LeBron because he claims LeBron scores in an ugly manner.
No its actually spot on.
I don't see you as a Jordan worshipper, you just have a preference for GOAT and that's fine.
Kobe worship is heavily ingrained in his heavy iso scoring and "take over the game" mentality. Regardless of how many games he shot his team into a L.
A large % of Jordan worshippers worship Jordan for his PPG and high volume scoring.
Allblackdan is suddenly frustrated in this thread after co-signing every piece of garbage TWOG has spat out here for 10 years.
Your comparison of Jordan to Kobe before is like saying LeBron is like Westbrook, because they need the ball to be effective and aren't good off the ball.
So the Ray Allen shot was painful and devastating.
I will also assume Steve Kerr's shot was also painful for you since it wasn't Jordan that shot it, and Steve Kerr won that game with that bailout shot.
It's always been a myth that the franchise player must hit all the game-winners.. Absurd.
However, a valid question is whether the franchise player had anything to do with the game-winner - did they impact the possession in any way to effect the winner?
In the case of Kerr, it's a documented fact with famous video that shows Jordan planning the play with Kerr... The video shows MJ saying the following in the huddle: "I trained their defense for this moment Steve - when I blink, they double me.. So you be ready in the spot"... Kerr responded: "when they come off, I'll be ready".. This was pretty much word-for-word what the video showed..
Imagine being able to control a defense so severely that you predict when and where double-teams will happen, which contrasts with Lebron not getting doubled at all - i.e. defenses meet penetrators at the rim with multiple defenders, so the only players they need to double-team on the perimeter are hot jumpshooters (never Lebron).. That's why teams don't double-team Lebron - it has nothing to do with his passing ability because a 1st-grader can pass out of a double-team and allow their squad to enjoy the ensuing 4-on-3 advantage - so any double-team hurts a defense (causes a 4-on-3 disadvantage away from the ball), not just the ones where the guy is a good passer (which Jordan was anyway).. Again, teams don't double Lebron because it's better to stay at home and let someone dominate the ball, especially if there's no threat of them getting "hot" (the seminal reason teams need to double).
The Paxson play was more of a Lebron-type of game-winner where teammates do everything... But unlike Lebron's teams that have historic clutch assassins like Wade or Kyrie, Jordan was the only option to bring the ball up with history on the line... It was a massive moment and the Bulls would never have trusted Pippen in that spot to bring the ball up and dictate the play.. Pippen averaged 4.3 TO's in that series (2.7 for MJ) and despite the belief of new fans, Pippen was viewed as a shaky choker - he would never have been trusted in that spot to bring the ball up and decide how the play would be run.. Otoh, when the Suns saw Mr. 41 ppg coming at them with the series on the line, they panicked as every defender overcommitted on their man, which let the play unfold and the Bulls' great chemistry easily took advantage.. The Suns basically started reaching (Bulls teaching).
Btw, in addition to the 1st option being a factor on the game-winning play, it's important to note the 1st option's own efficiency on game-winners, since that's a direct reflection of their state of mind in those moments - it's literally a mathematical equation that goes as follows.. 1) Take the efficiency on regular shots (non-game-winners) and subtract from this number the efficiency on game winners - this gap is the choke factor, which was zero for MJ (same efficiency on winners as his regular efficiency) versus a biggest-ever choke factor for Lebron (massive cratering of efficiency on winners and 0% efficiency on the championship level).. MJ is the only player in history that achieved the same efficiency on regular shots (50%) and game-winners (50%) or clutch-time efficiency, aka last 5 within 5 (48%), so only MJ had icewater in veins (not human, which is why everyone says there's a glow about him)
I guess it’s hard to differentiate a improvise Hail Mary shot out of the blue and a clearly carefully design play put in action .
it's obvious that the kyrie and ray allen shots were 100% bailouts because the series would've been lost without those shots, while misses from Kerr/Paxson would've still resulted in Game 7
of course the kerr and paxson shots came via ball movement and actual team basketball, while the Kyrie shot was 100% iso-hero-bailout, and the Allen shot was broken play and lucky bounce to him for the bailout.
btw, Kyrie was the only option on that play because Lebron has never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals - he's never hit a game-tying or go-ahead bucket on the last possession of a Finals game (0-10).. So Kyrie was literally the only option on that play.. Otoh, Jordan is 4-8 in the Finals on game-tying or go-ahead buckets in the last 25 seconds, so his efficiency on game-winners is the same as his regular efficiency (icewater in veins).
LeBron being a vastly superior floor general, passer doesn't matter because PPG and iso scoring is the most important metric.
"floor general" isn't a primary strategy in basketball that yields winning
Instead, it's a tiny aspect of the game that some players have, which makes coaching lazier (just give the ball to 1 guy and let him dominate the ball) and allows for accumulation of "inflated" stats for the ballhandler, since they come at the expense of the best coaching and brand of ball (ball movement).
but if we're talking floor generals - Lebron wasn't a "vastly" superior one because Jordan averaged 30/9/11 at point guard, while averaging more assists than Lebron ever did in a Finals (11.4 in 1991) - MJ also averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, which is thru half their chips (85-93' vs 06-14') - it wasn't until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards that Lebron started averaging more assists in the playoffs than MJ.
No, I hate Lebron because his "decision" ruined basketball like Iman Shumpert said... It ruined the natural competitive balance of the league and ushered in a softer era of teaming up with opposing franchise players, thus tainting championship rings severely and turning it into a mockery..
Guys like Jokic, Curry and Giannis must figure out the chemistry and championship brand of ball, while Lebron gets to pursue a talent-based approach (all-star team strategy) and team up with opposing franchise players - so he never really learned how to win (chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).. He always needs more help because he never learned to win with chemistry, and we must all bear the brunt of this failure by listening to the IDIOTIC media clamor for more help, without understand what is going on (just described - this bum never finished climbing the organic learning curve of winning with chemistry, so he always needs more help/talent)
I also hate Lebron for forcing the media to misreport on him and MJ............. in order to create a fake debate.
For example, which arrival in LA brought a title to LA? .. Was it Lebron's arrival in 2019 (lottery), or AD's arrival in 2020 (title)?
It was clearly AD that showed what he can do with just a little help, not the other way around - AD led the Lakers in scoring, while lifting their defense from worst to first, and this 2-way turnaround allowed lottery to champion.. That's why he's top 75 - it's been his team since he arrived in LA.
In 2020, AD led the entire playoffs in scoring and there's never been a playoff scoring champ that didn't get credit when they won the title, especially if they outplayed a 2-time league MVP in the process (jokic) - that would be like Hakeem NOT getting credit in 95' when he destroyed Robinson..
Lebron required teammates that were capable of leading him statistically like AD in 2020 or Wade in 2011, and Kyrie nearly matched Lebron in 2016 Playoffs.. So none of his rings compare to Jordan's, since Jordan always CARRIED pippen statistically (10-30 ppg more than pippen in every series)..
Lebron could never carry the scoring load like MJ, so he needed more help.. Specifically, he never carried the scoring load on the championship level and he could never carry bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).. The reason Lebron can't carry the load like MJ is because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he needs sidekicks that can match or lead in scoring to sufficiently offset his weak brand of ball.. that's why he lost 2009 ECF as historic favorite - he was too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he couldn't win with weak scoring help like Mo and needed franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option to win as 1st option.
If MJ was "carrying" the Bulls in 1987 with 37 ppg, then why wasn't he considered carrying the 1st three-peat Bulls with 35 and 41 ppg in the Finals?.. How can a team that needed 41 from the 1st option be considered a good roster? (the bulls & suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg in the series, so all 41 was needed, especially since pippen shot 46% TS, aka couldn't handle additional load)
History shows that from 89' to 91', the Bulls went from being a horrific roster to goat team and the only roster change was Pippen and BJ improving by 4 ppg each (Grant none).. So Jordan was carrying the same crap roster from 89' to titles soon after, and it showed in the 92' and 93' Playoffs where MJ averaged 35-37 overall and 35-41 in the Finals.. He carried ordinary rosters to 6 titles but people are simply results-oriented, so they assume that team with 6 titles had elitely-talented casts.. The reality is that the Bulls are the only dynasty in history without a 3rd scorer or 3rd all-star - the only dynasty that was an ordinary roster and not a super-team.. this is possible with the 1st option that can completely carry the scoring load and win with a cast of cheap defenders/hustlers/role players.
There is no irony.
Kobe Bryant worship comes heavily from his constant love of iso scoring, which is aesthetic to casual observers.
A large % of Jordan worshippers come exactly from that vein.
LeBron being a vastly superior floor general, passer doesn't matter because PPG and iso scoring is the most important metric.
Your friend TWOG literally hates LeBron because he claims LeBron scores in an ugly manner.
Is 1 rebound and 2 assit that much more impressive statistically speaking to say LeBron was a vastly superior general and jordan was just iso scoring ?
I wonder who solely focus more on scoring u or Jordan worshipper ?
Mj 30.1 ppg 6.2 rbn 5.3 assit
LeBron 27.1 ppg 7.5rbn. 7.3 assit
Fwiw I don’t see MJ only about scoring shrug
And that was mj playing the best D at his position too .
When was the last decade LeBron played D ?
MJ isn’t just about why u think people think imo.
U speak as if MJ was just 30 ppg and 0 at everything else shrug
Ah yeah he didn’t choke either …
