LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Michael Jordan received George Gervin in 86. Gervin was an All Star in 85. Gervin was a 12 time all star. Was he "ready-made" enough for you?

They didn’t really play together sadly .
Gervin played 2 games , 6 min and 5min each in the playoffs .
Not even 3 games .
Game 1 , 6m 0/1fg 1rbn 2 turn over .
Game 2 5m 0fg 1asst
Game 3 dint play
Retired from nba .
Regular season mj only played 18 games and like half was under 20m played .

To say MJ played with gervin is a reach and without MJ that team was just plain terrible (22-43) W/L

Sounds like MJ ruined him.

Didn't even want to come back and play another season despite being an All-Star 12 months earlier.

Well he was a shooting guard right ?
Not much to do I suppose behind a guy that play 82 games a year , 40m a night shrug .

The guy was like 16 ppg during the season without MJ , 16/2/1 stats with the worst %fg in his career .
Seem he was just declining very quickly to me .
Couldn’t even be better than woolridge .

Shaq was all-star MVP in 2009, which was the year before joining Lebron in 2010 as the Cavs' 4th option behind all-stars Lebron, Jamison and Mo.

Don't laugh at Jamison because the 2x all-star famously outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round by averaging 32/10 on 48% compared to Lebron's 28/9 on 43%, while playing a futuristic style (6 three-point attempts at 35%).. Since Jamison outplayed Lebron, the only reason that Lebron swept Jamison is because he got a Pippen-like 19 ppg from BOTH Hughes and Zydrunas in that series.

As I've mentioned many times, Lebron entered his first playoffs after 3 years of development into a well-coached, veteran-laden high seed, so he never had a low seed until 2021 (1st Round exit)..

In contrast to Lebron having good coaching for his first playoffs and a Year 3 high seed, rookie Jordan carried 8 seeds against dynasties.. It would be like the 05' Cavs facing the 17' Warriors in the 1st Round..

Any top 20 all-time candidate will have an organic juggernaut and league favorite by Year 7 just like Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Lebron or Jordan.

These casts will be built on chemistry and therefore need less talent.

So people are mistaken when they say that the early Cavs' teams were weak because they became organic juggernauts and league favorites - they had 3 scoring options by 2010, so that's more than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also amassing better defensive rankings - a deeper cast on both sides of the ball (superior rim protection and more athletic guards, along with more scoring options).

The issue is that unlike Giannis, Jokic, Curry and Jordan, Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - no one expected this when he first entered the league (failed expectation).. Ultimately, Lebron never finished climbing the organic learning curve of chemistry and therefore always needs more help (talent).. He never really learned how to win (organic, chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based approach, all-star team strategy).

Consider that the 80's Celtics and Lakers needed super-teams to beat the Bad Boys in 7 games, while Jordan needed just Pippen to sweep the 2-time champs in 91', and could've beaten them in 89' or 90' with even lesser casts... (but Pippen chokes both times caused loss - this is historical record and well-documented)..

Ultimately, when both Lebron and Jordan got "ready-made guys", Jordan won far more rings in far less time and with 1 less all-star - Lebron needed franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option to win as 1st option, while MJ won with no other franchise players, go-to players, or elite producers on the team.

In addition to Shaq being all-star MVP in 2009 before joining Lebron in 2010, history shows that Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 and Wade was all-star MVP in 2010

so only Lebron teamed up with a bunch of all-star MVP's and guys that outplayed league MVP's in the playoffs (Kyrie outplayed Curry, and AD outplayed Jokic, and Wade outplayed Dirk)... Lebron went 1/4 with all these guys, while MJ won 6 in 7 years with a sidekick that never hung with league MVP's let alone outplay them.
.

Hot damn, that last dunk.. he probably could've taken off from 3 feet behind the FT line and still been able to dunk it.

Can you guys imagine if Bobby Knight was able to convince Portland to draft Jordan???!!!! How many titles would Jordan+Drexler could have won? I imagine they'd have Jordan run the point.

Defense is better than it was in the 90s, Offense just improved much more, mostly because teams realized that 3 points > 2 points and adjusted shooting accordingly

Even the years with the short 3pt line teams then were taking half as many 3s as modern teams, it was bad outdated offense compared to nowadays

Lol. Imagine Oakley just laying Steph out a few times.

Physical assault is not defense. This isn't football.

Modern teams have to cover like 3 times the area they used to, back when teams had 1-2 good shooters instead of 4-5. Of course they're gonna look worse.

Why run a traditional point guard offense when a player with MJ's jumpshooting skill (the goat off-guard) allows one of those sophisticated, all-time offenses that doesn't have a real point guard, such as the MJ/Kobe triangles or a Curry-like ball movement system, or even a Popovich system that corrals the PG and minimizes the traditional ball-dominant role - these are better options that yield all-time offenses and team ceilings/Finals records rather than having MJ "run the point" in a simpleton offense that wins less, yields underwhelming teams regardless of cast and needs more help on a perpetual basis due to weaker chemistry.

Lebron/Drexler would run this type of inferior, traditional offense with Lebron as a point guard-style player, while MJ/Drexler could have offenses far superior to that - we saw MJ have goat offenses with a bricklayer like Pippen, so a sophisticated offensive player like Drexler would yield unlimited offensive capacity and synergy alongside MJ.. Obviously they would win every year and have 12 titles but MJ wins every year with nearly any all-star-level player, even a historic bricklayer and low-production transition player/dunker like Pippen.. The instant MJ got 1 all-star, he didn't lose more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98').

Was a stud when he came to Chicago, so it must be MJ's fault he went bad.

I mean I've heard the logic used for Larry Hughes, so it must be applicable here.

Also excellent round down on the stats and implying 47.2% was a bad shooting percentage. Better than MJ that year.

Oh, next post argued for Shaq! Excellent work.

^^^ the bolded above is factually incorrect because league average ORTG has only increased in the last 5 years since 2019

Before 2019, it ranged between 103-109 and the shortened-line years were at the high end of this range (107-109) - so the shortened-line years had higher ORTG than most other years including 2012-2014 when ORTG dipped to 104-105 range (despite taking far more threes then the shortened line years).

So your assessment is wrong.

It turns out that using the 3-point line creates a lot more space on the court and this effect is reflected in league ORTG when attempts hit 30 per game (2019 onwards) - this is what the historical data shows.. This "spacing" restricts the effectiveness of defense, while additional rules further restrict defenses such as hands-off and no impeding rules.

So defense is simply less effective versus spacing and hands-off rules than the unspaced, physical rules of prior eras and the numbers confirm this - defenses give up 10 more points per 100 possessions than the unspaced, hands-on eras of yesteryear - and most of these points go to the star player(s).. That's why experienced watchers know that MJ would average at least 43+ in today's game.

People forget that from 1985 to 1993, MJ shot 36.4% on threes in regular season games that he had 3+ attempts, and 39% in playoff series with 3+ attempts (regular line only).. So there's no record of MJ shooting below today's standard when he had today's volumes (3+ attempts)..

Since he always shot at today's standard when he had today's volume despite not practicing the shot (36-39%), he would shoot over 40% with practice in today's game...

Of course, guys like SGA show that threes aren't needed to average 30, so MJ's ability would be massive overkill in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format.

I pointed out (quite shrewdly I might add) that Jordan receiving a washed-up Gervin who was all-star the prior year is the same as Lebron receiving a washed-up Shaq in 2010 who was all-star the prior year (and all-star MVP at that)

Somehow this missed you - it's amazing the lack of self-awareness to get completely destroyed and have no idea - must be nice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glnqzfPN...

True, but it's harder to score against physical assault and requires more skill, touch and quick instinct

this shows up in international competition as the international game has less spacing and more physicality, which requires touch/mid-range and quick instinct - current NBA players lack these things due to the spaced-out, hands-off beginner format that only requires threes and gather-step skill (layups) and you can take all day dominating the ball (weaker/slower instinct).. Silver and Lebron created this beginner format.

And the data confirms THEY CAN'T

teams give up 10 more points per 100 possessions in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format than the unspaced, physical eras of prior eras (advanced format)

most of these 10 points go to the star player, which is why experienced viewers know that MJ would average at least 40 in today's game and 50 isn't impossible

Fifa ball is much more fun to watch because the rules allow defense.

Gervin was washed up at 33 years old, whereas Hughes was coming off 2 peaks seasons at 26 years old - so the trajectories were completely different.. Jordan also didn't play with Gervin due to injury.

History shows that in 2006, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas received a likely-HOF coach and also a player that was achieving prime Pippen stats (22/6/5 with 1st team defense) - Jordan 3-peated with this kind of cast and team defenses, while Lebron was swept, locked up and then gave up

It isn't coincidence that Hughes had pippen-like seasons alongside a great off-guard and expert jumpshooter like prime Arenas - Hughes would've similarly blossomed alongside prime MJ (just like Pippen, BJ, Grant, Woolridge, Paxson, Vincent and Oakley did).. Jordan's skillset and style has a goat history of teammate development, great fits and teammates playing near capacity (near career highs), while Lebron's skillset has a massive track record of bad fits, teammates playing below capacity and zero young player development (imposition of spot-up roles).

it was the worst of Gervin career ....
and yes of course as u take less shot your %fg should increase right ?
And yet Gervin that year at the less shot attempt in his entire career beside his rookie year !
Imo Gervin was clearly on a descending trend.

ps: if MJ would of just aim at 16-20 ppg im pretty sure mj would had over 50%fg .

Ragdolled?

Yeah the closest Barkley got was 91' and it was still a drubbing - not as bad as 90' or 93', but still a clear distinction between the 2 players' performances.

It's interesting that even in 91' (Jordan's lightest load), he was required to average 31-33 and be scoring champ while winning the title (unprecedented) with 11 APG in the Finals, so he never got easy titles that allowed him to relax and efficiency-hunt for a pathetic 25 ppg like Bron's titles.

Bron's titles had teammates match his scoring and "close" for him, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. It's a clear-cut basketball-related demonstration (overcoming more defensive attention) of Jordan's superior capability.

.
This clip shows that a pre-injury, 38-year old MJ was demonstrably superior to 38-year old Lebron - aka better production in a league that allowed nearly 10 less points per 100 possessions, while leading a lottery team to real contender status including massive DEFENSIVE impact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjuwSgAw...

you love cherry picking, he played a ton of games over those years averaging 1.54 3pa/gm but you pretend all the games he shot 0-2 aren't relevant, he shot 30.7% over that stretch shrinking the sample size to fit narrative is your favorite thing

He had a 92/245 37.6% season and then took less than 200 3s over the next 2 full years, that's on him and his shot selection

Then when they shortened the line he took 6x as many 2pt shots at 50% over his 42.7% 3pt rate, was he trying to help the other team by punting off .2 points per shot?

The instant MJ got a little help, he was sweeping the Pistons, while Bird/Magic's super-teams were barely winning in 7 games via miracle plays or bad calls.

Why couldn't the super-teams of Magic & Bird sweep the Pistons and end their franchise the way Jordan did without a super-team?

People will claim the 91' Pistons were old but that's categorically false - Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were 27-29 years old in 91' and experienced champions versus the first-timers that took the Celtics to 7 games in 87' - the Pistons metrics from 91' compare to 87', except the 87' squad was 1st-timers and chokers, while the 91' squad was 2x champions and preseason favorites to 3-peat.

Of course the Pistons were never contenders after 1991 and it's due to their brand becoming obsolete - history shows that they used a physical brand to stalemate the superior talent of the Celtics/Lakers, but now the Bulls had developed a superior finesse brand that completely usurped/swept the Bad Boy brand and made it obsolete.. The Pistons were essentially done despite Dumars/Rodman peaking and Isiah only 29 years old.

Talent gaps are rarely big enough between contenders to justify a sweep, so when a contender gets swept, it's almost always due to a superior brand/chemistry blowing the doors off an inferior brand.. We saw that with the 91' Bulls destroying the 2x champion Pistons or the 14' Spurs destroying the 2x champion Heat in a similar fashion and ending their franchise/brand of ball.

Similarly, misperceptions of talent are rarely big enough to justify an upset, so when a team gets upset, it's usually due to inferior brand of ball/chemistry.. We saw this with Magic in 1990 or Lebron in 2009 when they tried to carry the scoring load as ball-dominators and this inferior brand was upset in historic fashion by superior chemistry and ball movement.

fallguy:this thread as MJ:hoops. Total Domination! The proof is in the pudding, ie. CHAMPIONSHIPS. Not only that, if you actually watched BBall back in the 80's and 90's there wouldn't even be an argument unless you just like hearing yourself talk (or read your own posts). LeBron can be a force but in no way is he as DOMINANT as Michael. The only player I would put on MJ's level is Bill Russell. Championships! The rest is just a bunch of psuedo intellectuals arguing about esoteric stats. Show me the titles.