LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Pippen purposefully missed half the season in 1998 so he could feud with management - that sounds perfect
Of course Pippen averaged 16.8 on 41% in those playoffs and Finals, while collapsing for the last 2 games of the Finals with injury - that's also perfect.. I can't wait for AD to average 16 on 40% so Lebron can have the "perfect" situation to win a title.
Pippen also had the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG in 1998... Can't get more perfect spacing than that.
It's all just so perfect.
Rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged another 3/8 for the 98' Finals .. So it's just a perfect scenario - your 2nd and 3rd-best player completely MIA.. MJ was forced to score 50 clutch points in those playoffs (a record) and average 10 ppg in the 4th (goat) and double his sidekick's scoring average (GOAT)
Btw, Jordan led the Bulls in rebounding for the 97' Playoffs because Rodman only averaged 3/8, so MJ had to average 8 rebounds too and co-lead the rebounding (while also leading the assists and of course carrying the scoring load at unprecedented levels)..
Sorry to use your own words against you.
Anyway what I said was obviously silly. But not as stupid as implying the guy who had just won 3 championships, 2 MVPs (2nd in the other one), 3 FMVPs in 3 seasons was no chance of being just a All-NBA type player for the following 3 seasons.
The argument for KD over Lebron is 3-fold:
1) Both guys have all-time production rates/stats, but KD's skillset can have all-time chemistry and literally unbeatable/goat teams, while Lebron's skillset cannot have all-time teams regardless of cast.. Lebron-ball mostly loses with every cast and isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast, so he's inferior to KD, whose skillset can yield perennial Finals favorites instead of perennial underdogs
You don't like quarterbacks, you like wide receivers — we get it.
LeBron is an upgraded Magic, gtfo that that skillset can't lead great teams with chemistry.
MJ was a smart bully because he only bullied guys that could take it like Scott Burrell, Longley, Cartwright or Kerr.
He never bullied Pippen because he knew that Pippen couldn't handle it - he stated as much - he said that you had to stand up for Pippen to make him strong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BktAaTOC...
We saw MJ be the "enforcer" for Pippen when X-Man was dominating and bullying Pippen in the 92' ECSF - Jordan had to step up to X-Man in Game 7 so the whole team could gain confidence and avoid another "migraine" from Pippen.. This proved that MJ learned from the 90' ECF where he wasn't the enforcer for Pippen.. But by 1992, he'd learned to stick up for the cowering, porridge-brain Pippen..
I've come to believe that on some level, MJ knows that Pippen wasn't that much help and purposefully shitted on him in the doc - but in a sly way... The mainstream thinks that MJ was just presenting facts but notice how MJ got every major choke in the doc - the "migraine" was covered, aka "how can you question if a man says that he has a migraine" MJ states coyly with a wry smile.. Then the "sit-out" game is covered in extensive detail.. He even shows Pippen missing 2 FT's right before Miller's historic winner in Game 4 of the 98' ECF... I'm surprised that Jodan didn't show Pippen in Houston or Kobe crossing him to lose a 17 point lead in Portland... lol
And how could MJ not feel this way about Pippen deep down?? MJ remembers all the games that he had to take over and drop 30-60 for the Bulls TO EVEN BE IN SOME GAMES and then he hit every big shot down the stretch - he surely can't remember any "big" shots that Pippen made because there are none.. He surely can't remember any series where Pippen was the dominant player because Pippen was just a transition player and largely unavailable when things bogged down the halfcourt.. It was all MJ and sometimes MJ would have to throw it to Kukoc - that's how bad Pippen was as a #2 option - it took nothing to supplant him as 2nd option or pick someone else to take the shot over him.
You don't like quarterbacks, you like wide receivers — we get it.
LeBron is an upgraded Magic, gtfo that that skillset can't lead great teams with chemistry.
People forget that the KD Warriors were UNBEATABLE like people were saying they would ragdoll the 96' Bulls
Can lebron do that with a team?
KD was unbeatable with Curry, while Lebron had the guy that destroyed Curry but only had a whimpering 50-something win team and underdog in the Finals - night and day
So KD allows 1) higher team ceilings/Finals records 2) better chemistry such as making Finals with baby Westbrick versus missing play-in like Lebron 3) outplayed Lebron HU in 3 different Finals (12', 17', 18')
that's why KD's better.. His only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond to the "decision", which made his team-ups appear late and desperate or yielded crappy pickings like old or injured players (Lebron got 1st pickings by being 1st-mover in the colluding space)
In contrast to KD having an unbeatable GOAT team, I've never seen a Lebron team be a "sure thing" or mostly win, or be perennial favorites on the Finals level - it's quite the opposite - he has perennial Finals underdogs and losers regardless of cast.. Can you imagine him teaming up with Curry and somehow needing more help? It's hard to imagine except that was the case in 2017 because Lebron had one of the NBA's best PG's that destroyed Curry (kyrie), yet he still asked for more playmaking help.
Same thing goes for Kobe/Shaq - Lebron-ball would f*ck up that 3-peat like it's done every other opportunity it had to win at all-time levels - he's never reached it regardless of cast... "not 6, not 7" became 2/4 including goat choke and record loss (the worst anyone could do in that situation).
And Luka?
Fortunately, Luka is not the first high-scoring ball-dominator
Using the past as a guide, we know that Luka-ball imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he'll need ready-made stars to win (can't win organically) - he'll need to team-up with opposing franchise players and will still yield weak team records, as well as perennial underdogs and losers on the Finals level
When all this happens exactly like I said, you guys will say I'm crazy and dismiss the prophecy
Luka has zero goat-equity.. There couldn't be a bigger gap in Luka and Jokic's time of possession - Luka double's Jokic's time of possession but still has much lower production rate and of course far worse chemistry and brand of ball/team.
MJ was a smart bully because he only bullied guys that could take it like Scott Burrell, Longley, Cartwright or Kerr.
Sam Smith, in ""The Jordan Rules"" wrote that Jordan had no respect for Cartwright, told his teammates to keep the ball away from Cartwright in crucial late-game situations (even if coach Doug Collins called a play involving Cartwright), and bellittled the veteran publicly. Cartwright confronted Jordan:
Excerpt: He didn't do or say anything to anybody until late that season, when he told Jordan he needed to talk to him.
There was little small talk exchanged. "I don't like the things I've heard you saying about me," Cartwright told Jordan.
Jordan stared at him.
"If I ever hear again that you're telling guys not to pass me the ball," Cartwright continued, "you will never play basketball again."
That was it. But as Cartwright began to move better after surgery following the 1989-90 season, Jordan began to accept him more.
David Halberstam, in "Playing for Keeps," paints a similar picture.
Note: Jordan can be wrong. Very wrong.
Excerpt: Jordan did not respect Cartwright as a man or as a player. He called him Medical Bill because of his past injuries. He thouught Cartwright had bad hands, so sometimes in practice he threw him passes that were unnecessarily hard so that Cartwright would fumble them and prove Jordan's point. About no other player was Michael Jordan to prove quite so wrong as about Bill Cartwright, both as a man and as a player, but it took him almost two years to realize it and admit it.
lol k
"Great men are almost always bad men..."
People forget that the KD Warriors were UNBEATABLE like people were saying they would ragdoll the 96' Bulls
Can lebron do that with a team?
Literally no one forgets that.
If LeBron were added to the 73 win Warriors (whom he beat and KD lost a 3-1 lead to) then yes. Literally no one except the deranged, partisan Jordanstans would argue otherwise.
Btw, that same Warriors org just tried to trade for Bron.
fyi i really like luka because of kobe mentality and passion for the game, despite suboptimal brand that he employs stateside for some reason
What's more "lucky"?
1) sneaking into the playoffs as a rookie 8 seed and getting swept by dynasty, which hurts your legacy to new fans
2) waiting 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering your 1st playoffs in 2006, so you can beat losing teams and enhance your early playoff career
What's more lucky?
1) having zero all-star teammates or coach upon entering the league and then receiving a scrawny 8 ppg rookie that needs years of development
2) having all-star center teammate upon entering the league and then getting a HOF coach and prime player that was already achieving peak Pippen stats (22/6/5 and 1st Team Defense) before entering your first playoffs
What's more lucky?
1) having to use the most possessions in the league to win the conference and title
2) having teammates use just as many possessions as you to win conferences and Finals
What's more lucky?
1) having to double your sidekick's scoring, while averaging more assists and less turnovers
2) having teammates match or lead you in scoring
What's more lucky?
Being drafted to Cleveland, or Chicago?
No one wants to play in Cleveland. Here, take it from a guy who played in Chicago.
Literally no one forgets that.
If LeBron were added to the 73 win Warriors (whom he beat and KD lost a 3-1 lead to) then yes. Literally no one except the deranged, partisan Jordanstans would argue otherwise.
Btw, that same Warriors org just tried to trade for Bron.
The Warriors won 73 games because they had an era-changing brand of ball that Lebron cannot run but Durant can
So there's no 73-win caliber with Lebron-ball - it would be completely different where Curry isn't MVP or the leader anymore.. Otoh, KD's skills allowed the team to still be "curry's team", aka curry's brand of ball - curry's system.. Bron isn't good enough to run Curry-ball (73-win ball) but Durant is, so Durant is better because his ability to run dynasty-ball (Curry-ball, triangle, Popovich-ball, etc) gives him more title equity in the long run than pathetic bron-ball..
Ultimately, every all-timer that remains relatively healthy will play long enough for people and coaches see the best way to use them - so everyone will get a chance to see what their skills can do in an optimal system for their game.. As it turns out, the best expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ, Bird, Kobe) allow more effective ball movement and systems than ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, Oscar or Magic (w/out kareem), so they yield higher team ceilings/Finals records and are therefore superior at basketball.
What's more lucky?
Being drafted to Cleveland, or Chicago?
No one wants to play in Cleveland. Here, take it from a guy who played in Chicago.
If Chicago was the still the sewer they were before MJ arrived and turned them into the goat dynasty and historic franchise, then no one would want to play in Chicago either.
The only reason Chicago has any luster is because of the winning tradition and goat legacy that encompasses that city ever since MJ brought it 2 three-peats
Dude won 66 games with this roster:
You know deep down that you're full of ****.
If Chicago was the still the sewer they were before MJ arrived and turned them into the goat dynasty and historic franchise, then no one would want to play in Chicago either.
The only reason Chicago has any luster is because of the winning tradition and goat legacy that encompasses that city ever since MJ brought it 2 three-peats
Chicago is a great American city. lol cmon bruh
One can be the biggest MJ fan without having to be a Bron hater.
I don't even really like Bron, but facts are facts.
When do we put Jokic into the argument? Hot take i think he's the goat aready. As much as i love Michael no player has ever played like Jokic. I think he's the goat already all due respect to Michael. This guy is an alien!!!!!! Maybe Michael's 6 championships still tilts the scale but playing-wise this guy is not human. Otherworldy!
Jokic has the peak to match LeBron and MJ. Jokic probably a better offensive player than both LeBron / Jordan at peak.
He needs more peak years.
If he can do this for another 7-8 years he definitely right there in GOAT debate.
What hurts him a little bit is how long it took him to start dominating. Before 25/26 he really wasn't doing anything.
We have Matt R. and TWOG trying to crap on the 73 Warriors as much as possible because LeBron beat a 73 win team, and we all know 73>72.
By definition of what "odds" are - the underdog (even the Pistons this year) is still expected to win sometimes
So everyone will have upset wins - literally everyone - even the Pistons
So are you bragging about Lebron being the "pistons" of the Finals (being crappy like the pistons but still winning once in a while and getting the media to misreport this as goat?).. You're bragging about this caliber?... Even a broken clock is right twice a day - such a caliber is nothing to brag about..
it's better to be the perennial favorite that loses once in a while, then the perennial underdog that wins once in a while
of course we already know that lebron had more help in those Finals than anyone ever had because no one ever had a teammate outplay the league MVP - only Lebron gets this kind of help (kyire over curry; ad over jokic; wade over dirk) yet he's still "broken clock" or "pistons" caliber (perennial underdog or loser that gets lucky once in a while, which the media misreports as goat instead of one-off lucky "pistons" caliber or "broken clock" caliber)
Jordan is 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games in 1994 without Jordan.
.
2009 MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense
^^^ 09' Cavs superior on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls
That's the exact same roster as 2008 (45 wins) except they added an all-star spacer for Lebron's stiff arm that was superior offensively to 1990 Pippen across the board, while the Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense (19th for 90' Bulls).
So the 2009 Cavs were superior on both ends of the floor than the 1990 Bulls, yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for 2 more years.. Lebron lost as the favorite despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite, or forming a super-team - he took the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team, yet still lost as the favorite (to a 1-star team).
you can't make this up.
Lebron failed against the Dwight because he was too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, while also having his first big choke with 7 turnovers in the critical 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series.. He also had the goat defensive choke by deciding to guard Courtney Lee instead of providing the size/agility to guard the Magic forwards (Hedo, Lewis)... These errors caused the Cavs become one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series (-700 favorite).. The Magic actually had the injury excuse (all-star PG Jameer Nelson was out), yet they still won.. So imagine Lebron having the injury excuse in 2015 Finals but still winning - that's what Dwight did to the 66-win Cavs.
Every top 20 all-time candidate will have an organic juggernaut by Year 6 or 7 like Jokic, Curry, Giannis, MJ or Lebron.. The difference is that after Year 7, Lebron gave up on the organic learning curve (chemistry) and pursued a talent-based approach to winning thereafter (team-hopping, all-star team strategy).. He began teaming up with opposing franchise players, so imagine if Jokic hand-picked the top two 1st options in the West to team up with - and then imagine that he still got credit for winning the conference after that - that's lebron's whole career (manufactured fraud).]
it's simply better to be the perennial favorite that loses once in a while (mj), then the perennial underdog that wins once in a while (lebron)
one caliber is obviously superior and wins much more than the other, and MJ could achieve this higher caliber (perennial favorite), while Lebron-ball cannot (perennial Finals underdog regardless of cast)
For what exactly?... Following around a loser?
Plus he cannot match the Last Dance because there's so much similar content already like "The Shop" and tons of other similar content - so Lebron's doc will be an extension of stuff that's already out there, whereas the Last Dance was literally my first look at MJ in full HD for extended period - it was pretty amazing.
Accordingly, Lebron will get far less views than MJ just like his games do
Bron-ball has always been good enough to carry his teams over average to non-elite competition like the Clippers without George - any top 20 all-time player can do this
It's the top 5 SRS or Finals teams that Bron-ball can't beat without crazy scoring help from teammates - he never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (never carried bed-wetting teammates over top teams) - i.e. he lost to the #4 SRS Magic with 18 on 38% from Mo, whereas MJ routinely beat top 5 SRS or Finals teams with that crap or even worse from Pippen.
Some numbers for good measure:
09' Mo Williams vs #4 SRS Magic........... 18 on 38%....... #3 team defense..... lost
89' Scotie Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs........... 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense.... won
97' Scotie Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat........... 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense.... won
98' Scotie Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers........ 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense.... won
98' Scotie Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz............. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense.... won
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses
TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help
Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like Mo and Curry sometimes give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
How long did Kyrie last in Boston?
Kyrie is a cancer who's lost everywhere he's gone, except for when he was carried by LeBron. Lottery team before LeBron went back to Cleveland, and 0 titles since leaving LeBron. FACT.
So your new narrative is Kyrie > Curry? LMAO.
Lebron was lottery early in his career, just like Giannis, Durant or Curry - so Kyrie cannot be knocked for lottery seasons early in his career - the reality is that the Cavs inched better every year and were just good enough to attract Lebron back by 2014-15'.. There's a difference between a 20 and 33-win team
Regarding the "cancer" talk - that's mainstream media narrative designed to support the fake goat debate - how could a cancer outplay the league MVP and hit the biggest shot in history?.. Kyrie is just injury-prone, which cost him titles in 2015, 2021 and possibly even 2018 (you never know what happens in the Finals)
