LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
That’s the point isn’t?
Anyone thinking at that time LeBron was already the goat should be discarded.
People looked at the quality of his play in 2013 and his all round contribution and understood they were watching the most impactful basketball player of all time. But there were caveats around having to do it for longer.
The 3 - 1 comeback against one of the greatest teams ever in 2016 leading both teams in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks sealed it for me. The most impact ever in a finals to win a finals in a situation it had never been won before.
Durant joining Golden State was a disappointing event for the sport, but LeBron’s full on transition to point guard in 2020 and ability to win Finals MVP in a new role at 35 cemented the case.
He’s now just going long, shovelling on piles of evidence on an insurmountable case for “best career”. LeBron was arguably the best ever 28 and 31 year old basketball player of all time. He is without doubt the best 39 year old player.
You might be right to say that the argument for LeBron was thin 11 years ago when this thread started. But it’s also very clear to me that all the ‘if he can do X over the remainder of his career’ caveats have been roundly delivered upon.
I actually think the longer we go the more the conversation becomes irrelevant. LeBron is the most impactful all round player with the best career who brought an unmatched dedication to the sport across a full quarter century in the public consciousness. MJ’s argument distills down to “best peak” or “most cultural impact”. But it’s harder and harder to compare. MJ had the one coach he could win with for the one organisation, couldn’t make the playoffs with full control elsewhere. LeBron has won a title in three different places with three different coaches and three different supporting casts across the pre and post 3 point / spacing modern era.
It’s not really comparable anymore. LeBron’s scope, impact and complexity of career dwarfs MJ’s.
A timely video!
When this thread started ~11 years ago, if someone had told us LeBron would have crossed 40k I’d have pictured it as a Vince Carter esque 43 hanging around the league like a bad smell padding stats.
Not 39 year old All - NBA still the best player on his team. Been a wild ride.
45k? It looks possible. We just don’t know yet whether he’ll sign up for additional years where he isn’t the man on a team. Could be one or two more seasons and he’s done, that’s what I expect at this point.
When this thread started ~11 years ago, imagine telling the LeBron GOAT crowd he would only win 2 more Championships despite only being 29 at the time, when he would team hop to teams that worked best for him. They would have lolled at it. "No chance he only wins 2 more". Disappointing.
When this thread started ~11 years ago, imagine telling the LeBron GOAT crowd he would only win 2 more Championships despite only being 29 at the time, when he would team hop to teams that worked best for him. They would have lolled at it. "No chance he only wins 2 more". Disappointing.
Well we watched it play out, we understand why and the context around it.
I know you appreciate that context too, it doesn’t take away from how dominant that Golden State team was. They were a juggernaut and I genuinely think the 2017 version is the best team EVER assembled.
Just a question of whether he wants to. AD has fallen off this year so he’s very much the man in LA. Would he sign up to play years where he is the second or third option, would he sign up to play years where he isn’t on the super max. I think he retires after a year where he is no longer the dude.
He loves basketball. He's gonna be the Tom Brady of Basketball.
When this thread started ~11 years ago, imagine telling the LeBron GOAT crowd he would only win 2 more Championships despite only being 29 at the time, when he would team hop to teams that worked best for him. They would have lolled at it. "No chance he only wins 2 more". Disappointing.
LeBron is a better basketball player than Jordan, that's why he doesn't need to match RANGZ to overcome Jordan.
Same reason Jordan > Russell even though Jordan has almost half the number of RANGZ.
Well we watched it play out, we understand why and the context around it.
I know you appreciate that context too, it doesn’t take away from how dominant that Golden State team was. They were a juggernaut and I genuinely think the 2017 version is the best team EVER assembled.
He was a LeBron hater 11 years ago if you go back in the posts and still a hater today.
When I watch highlights, MJ looks like he's the best player ever.
Eye test>382 pages of this thread.
When I watch highlights, LeBron looks like he is the best player to ever live.
Eye test > 382 pages of this thread.
Nostalgic youtubez binge watching highlights is fun but sorry that doesn't make Jordan > LeBron.
How can you be this clueless in every single way? Passing is more than just assists, being a great point guard takes more than just passing, you can turn over the ball doing things other than passing, assists don't adjust for 3-point shots and being risk-averse wrt turnovers doesn't necessarily maximize offense.
Most crucially, we can track efficiency on shooting to see how volume translates to positive offense but there are no box stats that track passing efficiency. When you look at tape to a
MontrealCorp and Twog/fallguy are in the same boat. It's just random arguments thrown together that don't make sense.
I can't picture the amount of delusion required to write that Jordan was a better passer than LeBron James.
Lock the thread up. The Jordan worshippers have shown that they are incapable of conceding that their hero was possibly inferior at ANYTHING.
That's not how the real world works. At that point you've simply created the Church of Micheal Jordan and don't live in reality anymore. What's next, Jordan could have shot the ball as well as Stephen Curry? Perhaps Jordan was a better defender than Ha
Jordan stans cannot concede that LeBron is better at ANYTHING vs Jordan. The reason is that they know deep down LeBron is a better basketball player. Better passer, better at rebounding, better court vision, better transition player, more versatile player, better at 3 point shooting.
Any concession will break that religious fanaticism that says Jordan is God and everyone else is human.
Yeah I get that, but he’s also a good poster ime. Being a GS fan and facing off vs Bron four years in a row complicates one’s perception of it all, I imagine. But fidstar understands the context here as well as anyone.
Jordan is the opposite of Westbrook in efficiency and turnovers, so no - that's an extremely shallow and ignorant thing to say
Jordan shot 10-20 percentage points better than Westbrook, while having arguably the lowest turnovers ever among high-scoring perimeter players, particularly given his one-of-a-kind goat scoring burden.
So Jordan could only be like Westbrook if Westbrook had Dirk efficiency from mid-range and Lebron-efficiency at the rim and paul george efficiency from 3 whenever he had today's volume (3+ attempts), plus 3 more inches in height and big-man hands, while also having 5 more inches in vertical leap.
The only thing Jordan has of Wesbrook's is quickness.. This tiktok short encapsulates why MJ isn't just westbrook and infact GOAT (has everything):
Well i learn today Stockton is the goat point guard because of the stats and longevity he did and the incredible durability he had (16 times he played 82 games!) .
Better then big O
Magic
IT
Winning is just secondary .
Accomplishment vs his peers is meaningless .
Ho yes and this is the toughest era for offensive prowess .
There is no way many players of the past would even be better in today era (MJ and bird just naming a few ..).
Ps: Btw Lebron is such a great passer and strategist that’s why he
I hope people aren't missing these gems by Montreal and me - a great question was asked here - if Lebron is such a great passer and strategist then why does he have the highest turnovers in history (900 more then Stockton while having 5k less assists than Stockton)?? .
Can someone explain how a "genius" player has 900 more turnovers than Stockton while having 5k less assists?
Anyone?
This is a direct demonstration of how Lebron isn't the level of passer that his fans claim.. He's literally the biggest turnover machine in history, according to the statistical record.. Lebron is a drive-and-kicker... This is a simpleton, turnover-prone brand of ball.. If you give a ball to a toddler, the first thing they will do is start trying to dribble the ball and basically start pounding the ball up and down with their hand - dominating the ball - it's the easiest way to play basketball.. When Lebron was 9years old, his coach put the ball in his hands and Lebron started dominating the ball - he's never stopped - he's never evolved out of this adolescent brand of ball that can't win via chemistry, so it always needs more help.
The imposition of spot-up roles normally isn't too bad if it's coming from a starting point guard, since the ball-domination isn't abnormal for the position.. But when the ball-domination is coming from a frontcourt player, this constitutes abnormal ball-domination, which imposes spot-up roles at an abnormal rate (turns the dang point guard into a spot-up shooter) - so the team can't win via chemistry and always needs more help/talent).
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Just a question of whether he wants to. AD has fallen off this year so he’s very much the man in LA. Would he sign up to play years where he is the second or third option, would he sign up to play years where he isn’t on the super max. I think he retires after a year where he is no longer the dude.
AD has fallen off this year?
Yeah I get that, but he’s also a good poster ime. Being a GS fan and facing off vs Bron four years in a row complicates one’s perception of it all, I imagine. But fidstar understands the context here as well as anyone.
I have plenty of pro LeBron posts itt. I think he's the second GOAT and he's closer to 1st than third. That's not an insult. It's a wonderful compliment to be the 2nd best to do something.
Playmaking bigs do exactly what Lebron DOESN'T do, which is get assists without dominating the ball.. They live on the post/elbow and make plays from there without dominating the ball (without extended live dribbles), while Lebron uses mostly extended live dribbles and high hold-times like a point guard - he cannot live on the elbow or post and dominate the post with low hold-times the way playmaking bigs do (Jokic, Bird).. In Lebron's prime, his "time of possession" (hold-time) was literally twice Jokic's.
Otoh, Jordan completely dominated the post and lived on the post/elbow like Jokic or Bird, so he could be a true playmaking big while also having elite ball-dominance (point guard ability).
In the history of basketball, no one elevated quicker or higher on jumpshots than MJ - it isn't remotely close - the defender was often flat-footed watching MJ already 3 feet off the ground.
Given his jumpshot elevation, it's safe to say that no one in history elevated higher ON SHOTS PERIOD than the goat (mj) - MJ's elevation and hang-time in the paint or at the rim was unmatched along with his jumpshot elevation - they called him "Air" because no one elevated higher or longer on shots.
Furthermore, based on the numbers, MJ is the greatest 2-point jumpshooter ever.. This alone makes him a far superior scorer than Lebron.. And Jordan always shot at today's standard from 3 when he had today's volume (3+ attempts), so his 3-point efficiency reflects "bailout" volume (aka no volume - he only took bailouts - even Steph Curry would shoot poorly if he only took 1 highly-contested "bailout" per game).
Lebron is bigger and can bully defenders more, so he doesn't need the insane layup package that Jordan had - Jordan was forced to mitigate defenders in the air because he couldn't bully defenders as well as Lebron.. So Jordan's actual in-air, shot-making ability against length is far superior to Lebron, who can rely on bully-ball more.. When Lebron is forced to mitigate length in the air, it's often a clumsy miss, while MJ's smoothness was a function of his crazy hang-time ability and the resulting layup package with either hand.
Again, no one has more hang-time dipsy-doo shots than MJ with either hand (goat shot-maker at the rim).. But Lebron's bully ability can largely offset this so I don't have a problem giving the at-rim edge to either guy..
Regardless, the gap isn't big enough to make a material difference in the overall conversation about who's the better ballplayer.. And Jordan overpowered bigs all the time, especially after 1990 when he routinely knocked over bigs on his way to the rim and made them fall down while he stayed standing.. Again, the at-rim gap is small either way, while at-rim ability is under the umbrella of total "paint scoring", where Mj is superior obviously.. His scoring diversity is unmatched by anyone except maybe Kobe but I could make an argument over Kobe too - Jordan's scoring instinct and feel is unmatched, so he was making moves so much quicker upon the catch and instinctively than Kobe.. No one needed less setup time than MJ.
If you described MJ's skill set and Lebron's skill set as it relates to scoring in detail to a basketball GM
If GM's are choosing between high-scoring perimeter players, they would prefer an expert jumpshooter that doesn't dominate the ball, so the chemistry and teammate fits is better (they don't impose spot-up roles)..
Furthermore, history shows that ball-dominators are too ball-dominant at high-scoring volume to beat top teams, so they need all-time scoring help (a nightmare for GM's).. Otoh, jumpshooters can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they have sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams, thereby needing less scoring help (a GM's dream).
VORP (value-above replacement) is Jordan's BEST STAT
Let me repeat that VORP is Jordan's best stat - he reigns supreme above everyone in history
Jordan is also the all-time leader in regular season or playoff WS/48, PER or BPM, which are all measures of a player's advantage over the average player.. This assumes a minimum of 30 playoff games (dodge Luka)
(TS Add of 2913 vs 1943) through largely superior efficiency (Career TS+ of 108 vs 106, despite far more pre-peak and post-peak years). In fact Lebron's top 5 in terms of TS+ are: 120, 120, 115, 112, 112. MJ's top 5 are 114, 113, 113, 112, 109.
Efficiency isn't a good argument for Lebron being better than Jordan because tons of guys have better efficiency than Lebron, which immediately nullifies the argument.
Otoh, no one averaged more points than Jordan, so that's at least a better argument based solely on that, especially because he won titles that way (with scoring levels that no one else ever had).
The only guys that won titles as scoring champ were peak Shaq in 2000 and peak Kareem in 71' - so their peak burden was MJ's standard burden to win a ring.. And no one won titles while using the most possessions in the league (usage champ), except MJ (5 times).
Again, these are better arguments than efficiency because many guys had better efficiency than Lebron (so the argument can be immediately nullified in way that "scoring doh" can't).
Furthermore, the efficiency argument is particularly weak because the gap is small - the gap in efficiency isn't the kind of Lebron-Westbrook gap that it needs to be for the argument to have merit.. Infact, the argument falls down when you consider that the small efficiency edge is based on a rim-heavy attack (ball-domination and weaker chemistry) as opposed to the expert jumpshooting of Jordan (ball movement).. So Jordan's slight sacrifice in efficiency is easily worth it due to the superior brand of ball, chemistry and winning that it allows.. And it's a testament to Jordan's ability that his efficiency is so close to Lebron's despite far more jumpshooting and heavier scoring burden (carrying scoring load, aka facing max defensive attention).
Ultimately, Lebron-ball has zero #1 offenses in 2 decades, while MJ had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league-average (goat offenses) despite far less offensive help.. This shows how his game fostered superior chemistry, which allowed superior offenses and winning with less help/talent - aka the small efficiency gap means nothing except to highlight Jordan's superior brand of ball (jumpshooting style).
You would make that argument for any player that was good enough to win with the first all-star that he received and never needed another one
MJ is punished for being the only player in history that won with the first all-star that he received and never needed another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-stars and kept needing more all-stars for their entire career.
It's just shame that MJ didn't get an all-star sooner.. For example, the Lakers' 3rd best player was "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy and he would've allowed MJ to 3-peat from 88-90'.. That's just 1 easy example - MJ was winning games off the Bad Boys in 88' and nearly beating them with nothing in 89' or 90', so any decent all-star would've allowed victory over the Bad Boys.
Notice how the Bad Boys were a massive handful for Bird and Magic's super-teams, while MJ just needed 1 all-star for the Pistons to be a piece of cake - swept and franchise ended.
LeBron is a better basketball player than Jordan, that's why he doesn't need to match RANGZ to overcome Jordan.
Same reason Jordan > Russell even though Jordan has almost half the number of RANGZ.
Russell has a bunch of "Horry" rings, while MJ has 6 chips as the far-and-away best player on his team - that's twice as much as anyone in the history of merger or 3-pointer basketball (modern era)..
(obviously, it can be argued that Duncan and Lebron were the clear-cut best player for only 3 of their chips, so MJ has twice as many rings as the best player as anyone in modern history)
people cry about defense but MJ didn't get to win chips as a defensive specialist with 12 ppg and 5th option like Russell - MJ had to carry the goat offensive load and still be the best defender at his position like Russell (although Wilt was arguably a better defender)
How can you be this clueless in every single way? Passing is more than just assists, being a great point guard takes more than just passing, you can turn over the ball doing things other than passing, assists don't adjust for 3-point shots and being risk-averse wrt turnovers doesn't necessarily maximize offense.
Most crucially, we can track efficiency on shooting to see how volume translates to positive offense but there are no box stats that track passing efficiency. When you look at tape to a
If Lebron's impact is so great for team offense, where are his #1 offenses?
Why does he have zero #1 offenses in 21 years, while MJ had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league-average (4 goat offenses)??.
despite far less offensive help?
How do you explain that?... History shows that Lebron-ball is a great stat-accumulator for the individual but never the best team offense and always beaten by superior brands and offenses (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, Magic)
History shows that Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles, so it can't win via chemistry and therefore needs more help/talent.. Specifically, Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position (point guard hold-time as a forward) imposes spot-up roles (reduces teammate APG and increases their assisted rate) - lower teammate assists yields low TEAM assists and a brand of ball that gets massively out-assisted on the championship level.. Since Lebron-ball can't win via chemistry (imposes spot-up roles), it needs more help/talent and still has a lottery record against the aforementioned superior brands (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Magic, Mavs)
Yeah I’d say so. Struggling with his jumper all year and his useage and defensive rtg are down a couple of points. His contest stats have reduced.
“Fallen off” maybe reads like he’s hit a cliff. I think it’s more a case that he’s regressed a touch when compared to what he was doing in the playoffs last year. And it’s enough to make LeBron the clear best player again / hurt what this team can achieve as a whole.
I have plenty of pro LeBron posts itt. I think he's the second GOAT and he's closer to 1st than third. That's not an insult. It's a wonderful compliment to be the 2nd best to do something.
Yeah fair enough - and I have no problem with that opinion. This thread has run so long because of the ‘LeChoke is barely top 10 all time and does nothing well’ posters tbh.
