LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
People looked at the quality of his play in 2013 and his all round contribution and understood they were watching the most impactful basketball player of all time.
He was allowed to efficiency-hunt because his all-star team only required a pathetic 25 ppg in the regular season, playoffs or Finals - the East was diluted from the taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team, aka the decision - this unprecedented consolidation of power on 1 team allowed Lebron to rest and do less on both sides of the ball such as efficiency-hunt.. The level of stat padding was unprecedented due to the efficiency-hunting and low volume..
The passive, efficiency-hunting approach back-fired in 2014 when the weary Heat needed 41 ppg like MJ's three-peat but got 13 less from Lebron and lost by exactly 13 ppg in the Finals (record amount).
It's quite interesting because I believe Lebron reached that next level in 2015 when he learned to "gun"... That means shot-jack - take high volume and learn to dictate pace via high volume - this allowed Lebron to nearly beat a superior team to the Spurs in 2015, despite less help (injured team).
In other words, he's been a far better player from 2015-2020 than he was from 06-13', regardless of what the efficiency-fueled advanced tbox stats say... LeBronto LeBoston version (15-20') easily makes the Finals in 09' and 10' and loses to Kobe.
In contrast to Lebron's efficiency-hunting in 2013: on an all-star team, if we put him with a massive lane-clogger like Pippen, he would miss playoffs in a normal conference (undiluted by collusions) like 2019 with Ingram and Kuzma.
Yeah I’d say so. Struggling with his jumper all year and his useage and defensive rtg are down a couple of points. His contest stats have reduced.
“Fallen off” maybe reads like he’s hit a cliff. I think it’s more a case that he’s regressed a touch when compared to what he was doing in the playoffs last year. And it’s enough to make LeBron the clear best player again / hurt what this team can achieve as a whole.
AD's presence lifted the 2019 Lakers' defense from worst to first, while the Bulls' defense was far better without Pippen in 98' (#1 defense without Pippen for the first 35 games and then dropped to 9th with him).
In addition to far superior defensive impact, AD dwarfs Pippen offensively with far superior efficiency despite far more volume and a real "go-to" scoring burden..
Lebron fans ONLY have delusional statements with zero backup, while every statementbi make is backed up by empirical examples and/or trends
The facts are that Lebron never beat a top team with the kind of sub-par Pippen performance that Jordan frequently had to win with.. When Lebron got Pippen production from a sidekicks, he lost in historic fashion like the 09' ECF or 14' Finals.. He would have zero chips with a massive lane-clogger/bricklayer like Pippen and history shows that he couldn't win with the type of rosters and low-producing casts that MJ had
The funny thing about mj never won anything without pippen is that mj would never have lost a final with an mvp final winner as a teammates , certainly not twice (and almost 3 times lol thx ray Allen for saving lebron goat fake aspiration ) ….
Lebron's best accomplishments are beating weak teams like the 18' Celtics or him down 1-3 as the preseason favorite to a team he should be favored and then getting more help than MJ ever had to comeback, such as sidekick outplaying league MVP while being equal-scoring partner and "closer"
Otoh, MJ dominated teams far better than the 18' Celtics like 40 and 8 APG vs Barkley's Sixers in 1990, or Ewing's Knicks in 89', or #1 SRS Cavs in 89'.. Meanwhile, Jordan never underachieved by letting preseason favorite fall to underdog or 1-3 deficit like Lebron in 2016, nor did he need teammate to outplay league MVP or "close"
So MJ was objectively more dominant and needed less help
Ps: Btw Lebron is such a great passer and strategist that’s why he got like the highest turnovers in the nba (900 more then Stockton for example) while having less then 5k assist to Stockton .
Now that’s impressive.
Do you have enough cognitive ability to understand why we don't use raw assists and turnovers to judge a player's passing ability?
If you only ever attempt safe and conservative passes, you're not going to turn the ball over. You're also not adding any value. Judging solely by assists/turnovers favors ballhogs who actually suck at passing, because they never attempt riskier passes that lead to easy points. And you can't turn the ball over if you just jack up a bad shot, even though functionally it's almost as bad as a turnover.
Please think about what you post instead of just regurgitating the first thing that comes to your mind. The fact that fallguy actually thought this was a good point further reinforces how clueless you both are.
Watch some actual games instead of being this dumb.
This reminds me, twog, you still owe this thread your college stats - how many points did you score per game again? Also, how do you like that Montrealcorp guy, isn't it wonderful that the internet allows people like you to find one another?
Yeah I get that, but he’s also a good poster ime. Being a GS fan and facing off vs Bron four years in a row complicates one’s perception of it all, I imagine. But fidstar understands the context here as well as anyone.
No fidstar doesn't have a good handle on this whole basketball thing, you're being fooled by him regurgitating other people's analysis or mainstream consensus without understanding. When he's forced to defend his own opinion, it's clear that he doesn't really get any of this.
When this thread started ~11 years ago, imagine telling the LeBron GOAT crowd he would only win 2 more Championships despite only being 29 at the time, when he would team hop to teams that worked best for him. They would have lolled at it. "No chance he only wins 2 more". Disappointing.
Despite only being 29? He was probably expected to be a top-5 player for what, 5-6 years? In the 7 years since, Lebron's literally had three seasons since then where he had a decent healthy supporting cast. One of those years, he ran up against the KD-Warriors. He won the other two years.
2014: Wade and Bosh looked basically done
2015: Kyrie and Love out during the Finals
2016: Lebron wins against the 73-9 Warriors
2017: KD Warriors
2018: KD Warriors + Lebron has a completely garbage cast
2019: Garbage cast + Lebron gets hurt
2020: Lebron wins
If you put age-equivalent MJ (an improved version to adjust for era) in Lebron's situation (swapping out role players for better fit if you will) for those 7 years, MJ's equity is well below 1 championship. Virtually zero equity in any of the years Lebron didn't win and also very low equity in both 2016 or 2020.
You seem to have literally no idea what baseline championship equity looks like for top-tier players. Hopping teams is also far less advantageous than sustaining an elite core with a top coach. Sure there are players like MJ, Duncan, Kobe, Curry & Magic that have been in great situations more often than not and won way more than expected. But there are players like KG, Hakeem, Oscar Robertson, Wilt & David Robinson who won less than expected.
.
You can't knock Jordan for not playing in Curry's spacing era that made offense easier for everyone (2015 onwards):
FIRST 9 YEARS OF PLAYOFF CAREER (thru half their chips and the peak statistical years of both players)
85-93' Jordan.......... 34.7... 6.2... 6.6.. 2.3.. 1.0
06-14' Lebron......... 28.0... 8.4... 6.4.. 1.7.. 0.9
If Jordan was never tasked with being the primary playmaker and elite-assist guy for his team, then why did he average more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (thru half their chips), until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone from 2015 onwards - only then did Lebron start averaging more assists than Jordan in the playoffs.. Jordan averaged less turnovers as well while averaging more assists (3.3 to 3.4).
And why did Jordan lead the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (3 title runs), while being the only player with elite-assist capability on the team?.. If the Bulls needed elite assists and playmaking, Jordan was the only option such as the 91' Finals (11 apg) or his 25 games at point guard in 89' (30/9/11), and various other series of 8-10 apg.. Pippen did not have a breakdown handle - only Jordan did - only Jordan routinely broke his man down, drove the lane and "tossed dimes".. Only Jordan had sophisticated forays of consistently manipulating the defense, setting up teammates and controlling the game.
The greater assist load for Jordan shown above was coupled with doubling his sidekick's scoring average (carrying scoring load, aka defeating maximum defensive attention) - the greatest scoring burden of all-time.. In contrast to Jordan carrying the scoring load and defeating max defensive attention, Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention - his sidekicks matched or led him in scoring for entire playoff runs and outplayed league MVP's (curry, jokic, dirk).. In addition to a greater assist load and goat scoring load, only Jordan was tasked with using the most possessions in the league to win titles (usage champ) - completely unprecedented - and he did this 5 times (won titles as usage champ).. Jordan is also the only guy to win the title as scoring champ, except for peak Shaq in 2000 and peak Kareem in 71' - so their peak burden was Jordan's standard burden.
.
The thing people seem to not care, is the opposing team were really scared of pippen being an offensive threat ?
Should be more easy to collect assist and score when u have teammates like Kyrie, Dwayne or even AD.
The thing people seem to not care, is the opposing team were really scared of pippen being an offensive threat ?
Should me more easy to collect assist and score when u have teammates like Kyrie, Dwayne or even AD.
Shaq said Pippen wasn't on scouting report according to google and many reports.. And Shaq wasn't just coming up with a clever response here - he was remembering the locker room and the blackboard before the game - Pippen wasn't on it because he didn't require closing out on like Paxson or Kukoc, and he wasn't an iso "bag" or jumpshot threat to get hot (never doubled).
And you're right about Lebron's many assist target teammates - not only did Lebron have better assist targets and scoring help, but he had more actual playmaking help since Kyrie, Wade, Westbrook and Rondo are far superior passers, playmakers and assist-guys than Pippen.
Of course, Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen too, along with other 90's sidekicks like KJ, Stockton, Payton or Hardaways - so literally everyone averaged more assists than Pippen (Jordan, 90's sidekicks, and Lebron's sidekicks) because Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player with breakdown handle.. He basically swung the ball from one side to the other and pushed it on the break, aka "facilitator" (euphemism for basic handle/non-breakdown ability)
..
Do you have enough cognitive ability to understand why we don't use raw assists and turnovers to judge a player's passing ability?
If you only ever attempt safe and conservative passes, you're not going to turn the ball over. You're also not adding any value. Judging solely by assists/turnovers favors ballhogs who actually suck at passing, because they never attempt riskier passes that lead to easy points. And you can't turn the ball over if you just jack up a bad shot, even though functionally i
It’s has valid a point as saying Lebron is as good or better a scorer then mj because he got 40k points…
Or not recognizing mj would had even higher stats in an nba like today .
Or only lebron had injured teammates or bad performances that cost him rings
How can you be this clueless in every single way? Passing is more than just assists, being a great point guard takes more than just passing, you can turn over the ball doing things other than passing, assists don't adjust for 3-point shots and being risk-averse wrt turnovers doesn't necessarily maximize offense.
Most crucially, we can track efficiency on shooting to see how volume translates to positive offense but there are no box stats that track passing efficiency. When you look at tape to a
You should learn the word sarcastic.
I’m making stupid arguments because I use your own logical arguments for lebron stance u hold .
It’s obvious Stockton isn’t the greatest PG off all time despite being so much higher in completing passes -> ring a bell ?
But on a more serious note , how great u feel Steve Kerr is as a coach ?
What on earth are you babbling about? MJ never won anything without Pippen and we already did this analysis:
If you extend this beyond championships, MJ's case looks even worse. For example:
Playoff Series Wins
MJ without Pippen: 0
Pippen without MJ: 3
Clearly, Pippen had more success without MJ than MJ did without Pippen. And no one is arguing that this means Pippen > MJ, it's more that
U must have tremendous respect for Kerr ?
It’s has valid a point as saying Lebron is as good or better a scorer then mj because he got 40k points…
Or not recognizing mj would had even higher stats in an nba like today .
Or only lebron had injured teammates or bad performances that cost him rings
I'm fine with saying that Jordan is the greatest scorer of all-time. 10 scoring titles kind of speaks for itself, regardless of how you do it.
Can you answer the following questions?
Who was the better passer between Jordan and LeBron?
Who was the better rebounder?
Who was the more versatile defender in their prime?
I'm fine with saying that Jordan is the greatest scorer of all-time. 10 scoring titles kind of speaks for itself, regardless of how you do it.
Can you answer the following questions?
Who was the better passer between Jordan and LeBron?
Who was the better rebounder?
Who was the more versatile defender in their prime?
NBA.com tracks a stat called "time of possession", which measures how many minutes a player has the ball in their hands each game, including dribbling.. Accordingly, point guards lead this category because they bring the ball up and use live extended dribbling and drive-and-kick as primary styles of play - this stat essentially measures ball-domination.. Of course the exception among the leaders is Lebron, who is the only non-point guard among the leaders (point guard hold-time as a forward, aka abnormal ball-dominance for size/position).
Accordingly, the stats reveal what's going without even watching the games because Lebron had 8.1 minutes time of possession (hold-time) in the Clippers game, so it was "Bron-ball" vs the sub-par teams like injured Clips team w/out paul george.. But against the top teams like the Nuggets, Bron had only 4.2 minutes time of possession, so he appears to become 2nc fiddle of sorts vs the top teams and it needs to be AD-ball to beat top teams like it was in 2020 WCF...
But unlike Lebron, AD doesn't need high hold-time for high-scoring but he needs more than 13 shots like he got in the Nuggets game.. Unfortunately, Lebron never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with the kind of weak scoring that AD had vs Nuggets.. He can't carry the load vs top teams because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams (09' ECF) and therefore needs AD to score much more than he did the other night - Lebron's ball-dominance needs all-time scoring help like Wade, Kyrie or AD and cant win with the type of "pippen" level that AD had in the Nuggets game.
Yeah I’d say so. Struggling with his jumper all year and his useage and defensive rtg are down a couple of points. His contest stats have reduced.
“Fallen off” maybe reads like he’s hit a cliff. I think it’s more a case that he’s regressed a touch when compared to what he was doing in the playoffs last year. And it’s enough to make LeBron the clear best player again / hurt what this team can achieve as a whole.
Last year he averaged 26/12/3/2 on 56% shooting.
This year he's averaging 25/12/4/2 on 56% shooting.
Basically identical.
If you want to argue some advanced stats are down, I'd counter that with his availability being way up.
‘Hey TWOG, who’s a better passer, LBJ or MJ?’
‘Scoring, ball dominance, scoring, ball dominance, supporting cast, scoring’
Kewl
I'm fine with saying that Jordan is the greatest scorer of all-time. 10 scoring titles kind of speaks for itself, regardless of how you do it.
Can you answer the following questions?
Who was the better passer between Jordan and LeBron?
Who was the better rebounder?
Who was the more versatile defender in their prime?
Better passer? LeBron is an elite top 5 of the league, top 5 all time passing. Jordan is mediocre for his career.
Better rebounder? LeBron 1000%.
More versatile defender? LeBron. Jordan is never switching onto bigs, ever.
Better transition player -> LeBron
That's how I always know I won the argument - someone posts a fake post from 2013 that the mods decided to start this thread with and then promptly banned me for a decade and counting.
As it is, the post is clearly stating what Seadood was thinking at the time - aka that after 20 years, he thinks bron is better.. The post is stating what the other guy was thinking but of course mods deleted prior lead-up to that post.. 10 years later it's misinterpreted and used as a hail mary when a fake debate is getting exposed.
The most interesting thing is that the mods threw in another post where "I" supposedly say that I still need to see Lebron dominate the Spurs in the Finals, but what does Lebron do? He proceeds to average 16 on 39% for 3 games (locked up by Diaw) as teammates stave off an 0-3 deficit.. His 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, so it was another 2010 or 2011-style choke until Ray Allen's miracle.. Regardless, the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in that series (zero plus-minus and negative net rating for Bron).. Imagine getting FMVP and your team didn't even win when you were on the floor.
Apparently my 3 posts preceding this one caused the meltdown/hail mary
.
Last year he averaged 26/12/3/2 on 56% shooting.
This year he's averaging 25/12/4/2 on 56% shooting.
Basically identical.
If you want to argue some advanced stats are down, I'd counter that with his availability being way up.
Yeah look the availability and equivalence of his box score stats are good points. Will he make 3rd team All - NBA? He might
The most interesting thing is that the mods threw in another post where "I" supposedly say that I still need to see Lebron dominate the Spurs in the Finals
.
Interesting, so you claim the mods changed your post but you agreed with it anyway since you just used a "changed post" to complement your argument today.
lmfao
fallguy 11 years ago speaking the truth:
Interesting, so you claim the mods changed your post but you agreed with it anyway since you just used a "changed post" to complement your argument today.
lmfao
fallguy 11 years ago speaking the truth:
The reality is that the debate started with this thread 10 years ago and I took the right fork in the path for the next decade (he's a fraud) and many Klutch Sports victims took the wrong fork (LeGoat).
I'm proud that I took the right path and understand the way it really is, rather than fall for the fraud like you apparently did.
Ultimately, it's intuitive and an alien from space could figure it out without seeing a single game - they would only need the historical record of Lebron teaming up with multiple opposing franchise players but still mostly losing in his prime, while MJ was unbeatable on a perpetual basis and took over a decade the instant he got 1 all-star that wasn't even a franchise player.. So Lebron needed franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option to win as 1st option, while MJ won twice as much as the 1st option with just a single secondary producer (Do-,lo production) at sidekick and role players.
Lebron only had 4.0 minutes time of possession vs OKC (another top 5 SRS opponent) and therefore only had 19 points while D-Lo had 26 points and 24 for AD.
So he appears to become 2nd fiddle of sorts vs the top teams and it needs to be AD-ball to beat top teams like it was in 2020 WCF...
But unlike Lebron, AD doesn't need high hold-time to score a lot but he needs around the same shot attempts as Lebron, which he got vs OKC.. Otoh, he didn't get his proper proportion of shots vs the Nuggets a few nights ago and Lebron never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with the kind of weak scorng that AD had vs Nuggets.. Lebron can't carry the load vs top teams because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams (09' ECF) and therefore needs AD to score much more than he did the other night - Lebron's ball-dominance needs all-time scoring help like Wade, Kyrie or AD and cant win with the type of "pippen" level that AD had in the Nuggets game.
It's a random regular season game and you are making absurd conclusions from it.
