What to do with TT facing a huge 3B pre?
Played this one last night. Not sure how I screwed this up.
2/5 (10 straddle every hand), $1k max. 9 handed.
V in SB. ~$900. Stuck on the session. Hyper-aggro white kid in his early-mid 20's. He's part of my circle of reg friends, so we know each other's game. He's usually playing a raise-or-fold strat with his entire range pre. As the pre-flop aggressor, whether he's IP or OOP, he's c-betting close to 100% of flops, barreling turn big, and betting river huge.
If I had to guess, I'd say he probably thinks he has a skill edge over me. When we've clashed in pots, I tend to over-fold. I know he has to be bluffing sometimes, but because of how he plays, and how high-variance it can be to play with him, I usually just stay out of his way.
H in HJ. just over $3k. Absolutely crushing it this session. MAWG. TAG with occasional punts.
OTTH...
One limp. Hero raises to $40 from HJ with TT. Folds to V in SB, who 3B's to $300. Folds back around to hero.
No idea what I'm supposed to do here. Never seen him 3B this huge. I feel like this might be a jam or fold spot, but if I jam, I don't know what worse PP's would call, and folding seems too nitty, given how deep I am and how good I've been running. So I call.
$620. Flop is KQrag rainbow. V jams ~$600.
Hero?
I don’t think folding to a 7-8x 3-bet with TT is too nitty. What do you think his 3-bet range is in this spot? How do you think TT fares against that range and how well do you think you can realize equity if you call?
I would fold to this large 3-bet as I’m not interested in getting 180bb in pre with TT (his 4-bet calling range is crushing us btw) and calling, despite position, has us in no man’s land in a huge but now shallow pot with a hand that hates most flops.
AP, how is flop anything but a fold?
I don’t think folding to a 7-8x 3-bet with TT is too nitty. What do you think his 3-bet range is in this spot? How do you think TT fares against that range and how well do you think you can realize equity if you call?
I would fold to this large 3-bet as I’m not interested in getting 180bb in pre with TT (his 4-bet calling range is crushing us btw) and calling, despite position, has us in no man’s land in a huge but now shallow pot with a hand that hates most flops.
AP, how is flop anything but a
What do I think his 3B range is, or what do I think his 3B range is when he raises 7.5x? I think the size of the raise would polarize his range here.
Ordinarily, knowing he's capable of 3B'ing light out of the SB, calling off a normal-sized 3x 3B at this stack depth and folding on this flop would be automatic.
When he takes this sizing, it doesn't seem like he wants me to call, so I'm putting him on lower PP's and some of the worse AX hands, like A2s-A4s, A6s-A9s, and AJs/ATs.
It's only 90BB with the straddle.
Stuck or not, we still have to be somewhat wary of the huge size. It is probably a jam or fold spot but I think TT is just weak enough that you can fold.
Flop, now just a straightforward fold, yes there's a chance he's punting off with A7 but there's also the chance he was punting off with K7 preflop and has run in to it. Fold.
I did not see the straddle. I still think TT is cuspy. The problem with shoving into a polarized range is that he calls with the premium pole and folds the air.
I would shove JJ. TT, fold and move on. He’ll do this at some point when you have AA.
It's only 90BB with the straddle.
Stuck or not, we still have to be somewhat wary of the huge size. It is probably a jam or fold spot but I think TT is just weak enough that you can fold.
Flop, now just a straightforward fold, yes there's a chance he's punting off with A7 but there's also the chance he was punting off with K7 preflop and has run in to it. Fold.
Given the meta-game with this V, the reads, he's got 90bb, etc, what would be the weakest hand you'd call with pre?
Given the possibility he's punting post, what's the worst hand you'd call of the jam with?
Not sure it matters, but if TT is the best hand I have that calls the 3B pre, I don't know what better hands I'm going to have on the flop.
I did not see the straddle. I still think TT is cuspy. The problem with shoving into a polarized range is that he calls with the premium pole and folds the air.
I would shove JJ. TT, fold and move on. He’ll do this at some point when you have AA.
That is the problem I saw - if I jam, he's folding every worse PP, calling with every better PP that has us dominated, and probably also calling with enough AJs and A5s that we're either flipping, or even if not, I'm not that far ahead.
So, JJ is your "floor" here? Shove JJ+, fold TT and worse? What are you doing with AKo and AQs?
What range are you giving V here?
I'd just shrug fold pre for that sizing (especially if it's the first time I see him do this) and let him have it. Can't imagine calling can be good.
Given the meta-game with this V, the reads, he's got 90bb, etc, what would be the weakest hand you'd call with pre?
That is the problem I saw - if I jam, he's folding every worse PP, calling with every better PP that has us dominated, and probably also calling with enough AJs and A5s that we're either flipping, or even if not, I'm not that far ahead.
So, JJ is your "floor" here? Shove JJ+, fold TT and worse? What are you doing with AKo and AQs?
What range are you giving V here?
I have no idea how to range 7.5x 3! against a guy I’ve never played who has some history and meta game stuff vs you.
I would certainly shove AK and probably AQs. We are less commonly crushed when called compared to TT.
But if we call w TT, even some of his weaker hands have decent equity and unless we flop a set or overpair it’s impossible. Calling a 3-bet with half your stack with TT is always terrible.
I would just fold pre and flop is an easy fold. K Qx smashes his range. You don't even beat some of his bluffs.
If I were you I would wait for a better hand to jam PF against this V.
If I were you, seeing this flop would make me feel so relieved that not jamming PF must have saved us lots of money. Fold now. There must be better timing to call his bluff.
This is a fold pre vs this massive sizing
Ya that sizing is massive - your call pre is terrible as you're never feeling comfortable postflop unless you flop a set. Just fold pre - even aggro guys pick up hands here and there, and you're in a guessing game. It's either a jam pre or fold here, and I would need a lot more info to feel comfortable jamming.
To me there are basically 2 possibilities here
The first and most likely, guys like V described are aware of how (too) large that bet size is, this is some FPS ego move, because they wanna talk about this hand ad nauseum, so it just isnt gonna be AA or KK cuz blowing you off you hand with a premium pp doesnt feed his ego. In the same way i doubt hed wanna 3! Fold, because thats not a cool ego move, so it isnt junk. Id say this is usually gonna be AK, maybe AQ. Id expect him to basically blind jam every flop, so im happy to call and see what the flop looks like (and fold as played)
The second possibility is that V DOES in fact have a big skill advantage against you, and he has recognized a leak in your game, are you folding to 3 bets at proper frequency? You should be folding >50%. If you arent, maybe he is just taking your station ass to value town with QQ+.
I would just fold pre and flop is an easy fold. K Qx smashes his range. You don't even beat some of his bluffs.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have folded pre. In game, I was thinking that I'd never fold TT to a normal sized 3B from this V, and there was something fishy about his bet sizing, that made me think I could call IP.
Folding to his flop jam definitely seemed like the correct play at the time.
If I were you I would wait for a better hand to jam PF against this V.
If I were you, seeing this flop would make me feel so relieved that not jamming PF must have saved us lots of money. Fold now. There must be better timing to call his bluff.
If we see it as a jam-or-fold spot pre, then, yeah, there are better hands to jam, so it's just a fold. But in game, I felt like calling was an option, just given the specifics of the situation. I was probably wrong, and should have just folded pre.
I didn't exactly feel relieved on the flop, because he jammed, and I still wasn't convinced I was beat. This felt somewhat bluffy, yet I didn't want to punt off $600 to find out.
Do you see the situation as a fold-or-jam spot, or is there a range of hands you would call? What would be the weakest hand you'd jam, and the weakest hand you'd call?
Ya that sizing is massive - your call pre is terrible as you're never feeling comfortable postflop unless you flop a set. Just fold pre - even aggro guys pick up hands here and there, and you're in a guessing game. It's either a jam pre or fold here, and I would need a lot more info to feel comfortable jamming.
In game, I was thinking that if he was over-playing some middling PP or two big over-cards pre, he might slow down and check on a lot of flops. I wasn't expecting him to just jam from up front, even if he thought he had the best hand. I thought he'd either check or bet small on the flop, allowing me to check back or just flat call.
To me there are basically 2 possibilities here
The first and most likely, guys like V described are aware of how (too) large that bet size is, this is some FPS ego move, because they wanna talk about this hand ad nauseum, so it just isnt gonna be AA or KK cuz blowing you off you hand with a premium pp doesnt feed his ego. In the same way i doubt hed wanna 3! Fold, because thats not a cool ego move, so it isnt junk. Id say this is usually gonna be AK, maybe AQ. Id expect him to basically blind ja
Your thinking is close to what mine was in game.
I was folding to 3B's at a high frequency, though admittedly I don't know the exact number. If i had to guess, I'd say it was well over 50% - probably 20% call, 20% 4B, 60% fold. Most of my flat calls would be IP, most of my 4B's would be OOP.
I wasn't exactly thinking about the future discussion of the hand, though that is something that happens whenever two guys within our circle of reg friends clash in a pot.
I was thinking that this kid has a bit of an ego about his play, and as the "old guy" within our circle of friends, I'm often the one targeted for a huge bluff, because I do tend to over-fold against most of the guys in that group, this guy especially, because he takes such aggro lines with a lot of big bets on later streets.
The fact that I over-fold to his big bets on later streets made me wonder if maybe he was experimenting to see how I'd react to a big 3B pre. In the back of my mind, I didn't like the idea that if I folded here, he could start doing this more and more, whenever I opened.
I didn't think it would be AA/KK/AK, but maybe some weaker AX combo, possibly A5s, because of how that hand featured in a prior hand we'd played. But the most likely scenarios seemed like he was doing this with some hand that does fit into a SB 3B'ing range, but is nowhere near strong enough to take this sizing.
Reveal time.
Spoiler
I thought about it for a few seconds, shook my head, and mucked face-down. V instantly wind-mills his cards face up across the table, revealing 77. So, I actually did have the best hand pre and post, and my read wasn't too far off. He just made an insane play that happened to catch the perfect flop.
About an orbit later, I got all the money back and more, bluffing him out of his shoes on the river. Of course, I showed him the bluff, called him my bitch, and the table went wild.
It was a very good game. I ended up +$2k on the session. Pretty sure V was stuck a buy-in when I left.
Banking on people folding the first time they see it and not the second time is like a fundamental cornerstone of hyper aggro play.
I'm just saying the fact I don’t know what this sizing means makes me wanna fold even more. You seem to take from this I wouldn’t fold the second time, but that is clearly not what I said, nor meant.
Don't overthink it imo. Rather than "trying to see how you in particular would react to this particular sizing"… he was probably just tilted from being stuck?
Don't overthink it imo. Rather than "trying to see how you in particular would react to this particular sizing"… he was probably just tilted from being stuck?
Possibly. Another of our friends gave this guy the nickname "Gargoyle", because he doesn't express any emotion. If he even gets tilted, it might show up in his play, but not in his face or speech.
My approach to tilted players is to not bluff them, but generally to call them down pretty wide, because they tend to over-bluff. So, if I thought he was tilted from being stuck, I would have been more likely to call, maybe.
I'm not sure I should have included the fact that he was stuck in the OP. I'm not positive I knew that at the start of the hand, rather than learning he was stuck after the hand.
The flip side of thinking he's making a wild bluff because he's stuck is that he might also be making a wild play with AA/KK, perhaps trying to play off his table image, precisely because he was stuck.
I'm not sure if he'd give me credit for realizing he might be tilted, but he could also just be making this play against me, figuring I might be tired of folding to him, and looking to bluff-catch with 99+/AQo.
It could also be that he thought the limper may have been sand-bagging with a big hand, planning to back-raise, and he was hoping to fold out or get HU with that guy, which I think would polarize his range even more, if that was the case.
Good fold.
Flat calling with a psb behind and TT is just awful. You are usually not going to know where you are at. Calling and then folding the flop is bad. Preflop fold > push > call.
This was a pretty bad flop though, as he could have AK/AQ or suited broadway.
His play worked great here, but is probably bad, particularly with 77.
Without knowing what he had, yes. Just a terrible flop for TT when he jams from up front. Never seen him punt like that before.
Flat calling with a psb behind and TT is just awful. You are usually not going to know where you are at. Calling and then folding the flop is bad. Preflop fold > push > call.
This was a pretty bad flop though, as he could have AK/AQ or suited broadway.
His play worked great here, but is probably bad, particularly with 77.
In hindsight, I should have folded pre if I wasn't willing to jam pre or call a jam post. My thinking in-game is that my call was probably +EV if he's not jamming every flop with over-cards to my tens.
His play was just a punt, and I'd never seen him punt like that. I hope that there'll be future value to be had, when he tries that play on me again, and I have a hand that can jam pre or call flop.
Been thinking about this hand non-stop the last two days.
Everyone is saying this is a jam-or-fold pre. That was my first thought, too, but in hindsight, I actually think it's a call-or-fold pre when we're IP.
If we agree that his range is polarized when he takes this 3B sizing, and if we know he's going to jam on any flop, his play is printing if we approach it as a jam-or-fold spot. If we jam, he can call with the best parts of his range, and fold the worst. If we fold, the worst parts of his range are getting a free pass by not having to jam the flop as a bluff.
I think the correct response here is to fold most of our opening range, but flat call with all our big PP's, AK, AQs, and maybe some other AX or suited Broadway connectors. I'm not positive, but I think TT is just strong enough to be included, though maybe our calling range should just be JJ+, AK, and AQs.
When we call, we're not doing it to set-mine. We're basically committed to calling his flop jam so long as there aren't any over-cards to our PP's. If the flop comes all low cards, and he's taking this line with AA or some weaker PP that flops a set, he's just going to get paid. If he jams every flop with AX and his middling pairs, we'll be winning a lot.
When we fold pre or on the flop, he's getting max value with his bluffs and min value with his big PP's. When we call, he gets max value with his big PP's, assuming we didn't flop a set, and his bluffs are toast.
If we layer in the meta-game, with this V playing more aggressively against me specifically, I think it weights his range more towards weaker PP's and worse AX, and less towards big PP's and the better AX combos, making TT more of a call than a fold pre.
I'm just saying the fact I don’t know what this sizing means makes me wanna fold even more. You seem to take from this I wouldn’t fold the second time, but that is clearly not what I said, nor meant.
No, im saying solid reg types WAY overfold the first time to weird lines, and might not the second time they see a weird line.
Especially river overbet bluffs vs capped ranges are like almost free money vs solid players exactly once. The play V did here is a good move honestly
In retrospect, perhaps I should have folded pre. In game, I was thinking that I'd never fold TT to a normal sized 3B from this V, and there was something fishy about his bet sizing, that made me think I could call IP.
Folding to his flop jam definitely seemed like the correct play at the time.
If we see it as a jam-or-fold spot pre, then, yeah, there are better hands to jam, so it's just a fold. But in game, I felt like calling was an option, just given the specifics of the situation. I was probab
Yeah if youre folding 60%, its not JJ+ EVER imo. I wouldve thought AK AQ as i said but If you think he can have both high cards and lower PPs, i think you gotta jam. Im surprised to see 77, so it wouldve worked on me too. V seems good at poker, i wouldnt really want him at my table.
