LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I agree.
I would rather have a A+ perimeter defender like mj and an other A+ for the inside instead of 2 B defender guys doing all 5 .

i love your way with people, insulting, trying to attack my character and my personal life many times while i didnt once and just trying to have just a conversation with you.

you and candybar fit great together...

But its ok i see you enjoying greatly and that is whats important.
so keep at it.
i can take it, your the man!

I never attacked your character, only your inability to do math, and unwillingness to admit a simple mistake.

You could have ended this like 30 posts ago (as I said many times, just take an L when you're wrong) but you kept doubling down and tripling down on how your flawed math was a good approximation. It's honestly not a big deal to make a simple mistake, it's how you deal with it that reveals the kind of person you are. In this case, it shows that you cannot argue in good faith because when someone points out that you made a clear math error you can't even admit as much.

Then you tried to say that I must be a losing poker player and when that backfired you immediately abandoned ship and now just cry that I'm being mean to you. Yeah whatever lol.

That isn’t the argument .
Your argument says mj couldn’t play at LeBron level at 35-36-37-38.
Well like I said previously , it’s an incredible dive in skill and endurance the 12 month between 34-35 and 35-36 to claim mj couldn’t be all-nba .
Especially if he would start to miss 25% of game for resting….

Let’s see Lebron and his greatness because he start at 18 (well mostly 19 but w.e)
First season he miss the playoffs while playing at 21-5-6 ( I rounded up to help his stats) transforming a team from 17-65 to a record of 35-47.
Finish mvp 9 o0 .
not bad right ?

Second season Lebron miss again the playoffs while running at 27-7-7 (career average ) with a 42-40 team .
His all-nba ! Finish mvp 6 with those numbers !

That is just 2 season after mj retired , meaning same competition .

bolded part
So candybar opinion mj sucked and couldn’t be all-nba when he return right ?
lets use IF like candybar love to use....
Without any resting MJ first season return in 2002 , before the injury mj was at 25-6-5 playing all 46 games !

In his last 20 games up to the injury MJ averaged
27- 6.- 5 on 44%

In his last 10 games up to the injury MJ averaged
29 - 6.- 6 on 47%
before the Injury (46 games) .
That means he got better as the season progress which is normal .
He transform a team from 19-63 to a 26-20 team before the injury on its way to the playoffs .

Tell me candy bar , 20 games before the injury does that look like the stats of a young LeBron james being second all-nba in his second season despite his team missing the play off vs similar competition ?

Btw 46 games is just 10-15 games below many latest season where LeBron played 55 games 56 games at the same age where everyone praise his goatness with all-nba level right ?
But mj didn’t take time off tho …..

But yeah mj played with injury and couldn’t make his team wins anymore but he didn’t quit and still played 60 games trying to win injured ….and reducing his stats since it’s so important to you …

Now imagine if mj would have take a bit easier with some rest like lebron act today in an easier era on top of that !

His last season mj ran at 20-6-3 injured leading his team to a 37-45 season .
But mj sucked in your opinion that year and when I compared Lebron first season ( the season right after vs similar competition),
Lebron is great and no one says Lebron sucks despite bringing his team to a worst record and similar stats as a 40 years old MJ with a better team then MJ ever had with Washington !
And LeBron finish mvp 9 that year !

And mj played all those 82 games half injured anyway and u telling us without 25% of resting like LeBron does for many years now, mj couldn’t be all-nba ???

If I use your IF and speculation like u do I surely can say mj , In this weak sauce era with no D , huge amount of resting by almost every players , MJ probably could of been as good as Lebron to be all-nba for many years past his retirement from 1998 easily. …
maybe not at 40-41 but certainly 2-4 years after his retirement....

MJ took all of 94 off, most of 95, all of 99 off etc ..

You don't see how playing 21 consecutive seasons is harder than playing 10, especially when you have as many deep playoff runs as Lebron had

You are also trying to compare Jordan's Wizard year to Lebron as a rookie, I mean come on

You ignore that Lebron has had quite a few injuries over the past 5 years that have been the main reason he's missed games, more than the load management but also want to only look at the healthy Jordan Wizards games

time machine where he doesn't quit twice and plays straight to 40, the funny part would be that it likely would hurt his GOAT status with you guys because it's likely he picks up a finals loss and the mystique of 6-0 goes away(maybe they don't get Rodman and restack roster for the 2nd 3peat etc), it's ****ing hard to play 20 seasons, Lebron is the first player in history to still be dominant in year 20+ you can't just add 50% of Jordan's career worth of games in a hypothetical

Jordan was a quitter

o0
after that injury MJ was planly done but to say he washed out at 38 where his first 46 games was impressive , no i think what he showed at 38 certainly would of been able to do better at 35-36-37 , especially if u had up him taking rest .

the concept of comparing lebron and MJ isnt to prove MJ was better then Lebron rookie and second year, it is to compare the similar opposition !

Lebron didnt made the playoffs with a better team and making around the same stats as MJ pre injury and making around the same wins as MJ as well.
And lebron second year did made the all nba with similar stats as MJ pre injury vs the same competition.

it isnt hard to just imagine a little more of MJ not having an injury and just continuing on trend for another 20-25 games and see MJ clearly making the playoffs and being all-nba .

If MJ sucked in his first year pre-injury and second year then sorry to say but lebron sucked even more cause he had a better team and couldnt do much better and still lebron was considered mvp 9 in his first year and made all-nba in his second ....

was steve nash at 17-7-3 better then MJ at 25-6-5 pre injury for 3rd team for example ?
MJ was legit in his return when u look the progression and team record, thats all.

And again the narrative isnt MJ being 40 , its about MJ not being able to do what lebron did at 35+ which to me is ludicrous.
he clearly showed he probably at least untill 36-37 taking into account his 46 games at 38 and the competition he had to face.

LMAO this is such busto analysis, par for the course for you.

The pro-Jordan crowd really just sorts by ppg, efficiency be damned.

Michael Jordan had a TS% of .468 and .491 in his Wizards seasons. The league average TS% was .520 and .519 in those seasons. Old Jordan was the definition of an inefficient chucker.

How is that in any way comparable to 2nd year LeBron putting up 27 ppg on an above average .554 TS% vs league average of .529 TS%?

As long as you both put up similar ppg who cares how many possessions you use up right? LMAO.

is 46 games pre injury with 25-6-5 has a whole ( 27-6-5 in his last 20 games and even better at the end ) that far off from 55-60 games of all-nba lebron James with the team Lebron had the last couple years compare to what Mj had to work with ?
really ?

LOL, just incredible.

Steve Nash (pre-peak in 2002) had a .602 TS% and was one of the best passers in the NBA.

Jordan had a .468 TS%. The league average TS% was .520.

Gee who was better? Seems like a toss-up huh?

Honestly, you talk about people being mean to you but then you keep posting gems like this thinking you're actually making solid points.

"Jordan is a quitter" lol.

Yes, it's very different because old Jordan was a negative shooter, which you keep ignoring. With diminished athleticism old Jordan was basically hero-balling a bunch of long twos all the time, leading to below-average TS%.

Old LeBron is All-NBA because he still scores very efficiently (above average TS%), helped out by being a solid 3-point shooter. They are not the same.

This is honestly so, so embarassing for the pro-Jordan crowd.

If I was a Jordan guy I would talk about his peak seasons from 88-93 and just pretend his Wizards years never existed. Not try to argue that Wizards Jordan was still a legitimately good player comparable to old LeBron James, or Steve Nash (Jesus that was a brutal comparison).

Michael Jordan LOSES the longevity argument full-stop. Stop trying to argue it because it only makes you look like an idiot for not understanding that being an inefficient volume chucker is not valuable, AT ALL.

Peak Jordan was a GOAT-level talent, stick to that. Wizards Jordan is no better than old Carmelo Anthony.

it's been demonstrated quite clearly that before the meniscus tear in Game 47 (right before Jordan's 39th birthday), Jordan was superior to Lebron at 38 years old.. Essentially, 38-year Jordan > 38-year Lebron... I will concede that 39-year Lebron appears to be better than 39-year Jordan (post-injury Jordan when he averaged 15 on 35% after the injury in 2002 and then 20 ppg in 2003 season).

Now how specifically was pre-injury Jordan (38-year Jordan) superior to 38-year Lebron?... He was superior because he led a 19-win team to 37 wins (18-win improvement) and the 4 seed before the injury, despite not being carried by the #4 PER of all-time (AD).... Jordan had a 19-win cast and no good players, so his stats of 25/5/5 were against max defensive attention and therefore more legitimate than Lebron's current stats in on a stacked team as 2nd option many nights..

Pre-injury Jordan was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5 in an era that allowed 20 less ppg, so that's better than Lebron's 25 ppg in a beginner format and cupcake era.. Jordan also showed once again that he was unbeatable with just a little scoring help - Rip Hamilton was injured a lot but MJ & Rip were 15-1 together leading up to MJ's injury in Game 47, while MJ was getting better as the season wore on (27/6/6 in last 20 games leading up to injury and 29/6/6 in last 10) - the Wizards were on a serious upward trajectory after a 2-9 start and had a real chance to beat Kidd and win the conference that year - but MJ got hurt right before his 39th birthday.

Nonetheless, his 38-year old Jordan was clearly > 37 or 38-year Lebron (missed play-in and carried by AD.. and only 25 ppg in cupcake era that allows 20 more ppg)..

38-year MJ had 50 point games and many 40 point games and hit a bunch of game-winners - he was still in carry-job mode while 38-year Lebron has been getting carried ever since AD arrived.

pippen was also garbage..

the only difference is that he was carried to 6 chips, so you say he's great.. (inflated by winning spotlight)

but D-Lo is a better scorer and passer than pippen... and clutch.. I'm not saying he's a better overall player than Pippen, but it's pretty nice to have your 3rd option be a better scorer and passer than Pippen.

Why wouldn't Jordan win 70 with a rich man's Pippen like AD?

AD is #4 all-time in PER and destroyed Jokic to make the 2020 Finals - AD is superior to David Robinson, let alone Pippen - Pippen isn't on this level and never competed with the top players like Barkley, Malone, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, etc.

In addition to a weaker 2nd option, Jordan never had a 3rd scoring option like D-Lo that was an all-star, let alone a 4th scoring option like Reaves.. The Lakers are so stacked that Christian Wood was a 21/9 guy on other teams (39% from three) but is buried on this stacked Laker team.. So many former starters are buried on this Laker team.

Pippen's poor performance speaks for itself..

He never played better than peak Andre Iguodala or Larry Nance, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and undeserved media accolade.. In the history of the NBA, no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen and his low production or historic bricklaying/choking.

Every notable sidekick in the 90's was actually a "1b" with elite 1st option capability that carried their teams to the Finals or conference finals, while Pippen was the only guy that was more of a transition player/hustler and secondary producer - he wasn't capable of elite stats and wasn't available when games bogged down in the halfcourt (playoffs).

For example, Terry Porter averaged 26/4/8 with 53% on threes (6 attempts) to dominate the 92' WCF and carry the Blazers the Finals - this was the worst sidekick that MJ faced in the Finals.. So every sidekick had elite 1st option capability like this EXCEPT pippen (hustler, transition player).. Since Pippen had low peak capability, he wasn't on scouting report according to Shaq, which forced MJ to face max defensive attention (carry scoring load)..
.

^^^ this is the statistical record - the 2010 Cavs had a better cast on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls, but Lebron simply gave up 1 year early on his organic journey to an unbeatable team (that was built via developed-chemistry).

There was a 1-star organic ring on the table in 2011 that Dirk grabbed - the Cavs certainly would've had the chemistry and reputed defense to beat those Mavs, while the Heat super-team lacked both.

also the east was complete garbage for most/all of the time labald was there, but he kept getting punked by like the orlando magic lol. almost continued failing after convening a superduper team, but ray allen bailed him out. so i guess that means he didn't win anything until after the only good team out there (celtics) got old/broke up

thats my 2-way can score on 1-5 and guard 1-5 goat oat #checkmybulk$tat$

Lebron James should be giving christmas gifts to Scott Brooks and Ray Allen for the rest of his life.

How many rings does this team win in the 90s?

DeAngeo Russell
Larry Hughes
MJ
Antawn Jamison
Zydrunas Illgauskas

-20

As historically overrated as Pippen is the rest of the 90s bulls roster pretty ****ing underrated by contrast

thank you, this bill wennington slander has gone on far too long

I stan Beef Wellington

And I don’t care who knows it

Compare with whom both played….
Easy to have great shooting stats when your are not the primary scorer and can lean over others .

Same with lebron lakers team , LeBron much better team to work with .
That certainly help .

Because you take account both season with MJ injured .
Btw no one really cares about endurance and longevity , only LeBron crowd do .

The failing point you and candybar keep making is mj pre-injury sucked which is nonsense .

If 55 games is good enough for you well 46 games is good enough for me.
Mj got worst because of injury not because he was washed up …
Not mentioning he was in an ascendant trend !
You know there is a reason that wizard team had 19 win before mj , it terribly sucked .
Mj never had the luxury of having to play a team like the laker 21-22 compare to the wizard …
That is how bad the wizard team was !