LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Jordan all-nba points 2002: 29 points for 22nd place with the all-nba cutoff at 78 points
Jordan all-nba points 2003: 7 points for 30th place with the all-nba cutoff at 63 points
Maybe we should trust the voters that watched the games at the time and all came to the conclusion Wizards Jordan was no where close to all-nba.
That because u take into account the entire season for 2002.
Mj got injured but pre injury he would have done much better imo.
What I don’t understand is this ,
For 2003 mj was just finish with 2 bad knees with a bad team but he still played all games and seem he was not a legit good players near all NBA right ?
2003:
NBA3 /mvp 11 —> (SF) Jamal Mashburn 21/6/5
Per: 18 TS%: 507 eFG%:.460 Vorp: 3.5
2004
Mvp 9 — > (SF) LeBron james 20/5/5
Per: 18.3 TS%: 488 eFG%: .438 Vorp:2.9
I chose SF because that what Mj was playing those years .
2003
Washed up (?) —> (SF) 40 years old MJ 20/6/3
Per: 19.3 TS%: .491 eFG%: .450 Vorp: 2.8
That seem pretty close to both players being like top 10 mvp for both players or allnba 3team (Jamal Mashburn) in the last year mj played ?
What am I missing ?
Seem to me with just a little bit of rest by missing some games like today era and having just a little better team then poor team he had it was feasible ….
Some stupid motehr****ers posting in this thread
Again, yet again, I point up that the college career counts too in the GOAT debate. That's three years worth for Jordan with one title (so 7-0 in championships), 3 years for Kareem with 3 titles and 2 POY and 3 Final Four MVPs, 3 years for Olajuwon all Final Fours, 3 for Russell with two titles and undefeated season + goat winning streak to that point (if you're so inclined to look at Russell). Two for Chamberlain with a final game, and two for Magic with a title. It needs to be factored in. Th
Can we give LeBron a 5th Championship then for his High School National Championship?
LeBron spent what would have been his senior NCAA season dragging the Cavs to the Finals including his GOAT like performances against the Pistons.
I'm not sure what is to be factored in here, really? Jordan could have gone straight to the NBA, but chose not to. He could have chosen to play on beyond 1998, but he chose not to. Finally, he could have chosen to make better decisions as Wizards GM and built a more competitive team, but was unable to. We're left to deal with what happened, good and bad, for both players.
Chris Bosh said that Lebron's best season is 2012, but Lebron only averaged 27/7/6 that year, while Jordan averaged those same numbers but with 3-5 more ppg, more steals and less TO's in 91', 92' and 93..
Then he averaged 35/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs and 36/7/8 in the Finals, while guarding Magic and Drexler as the primary defender.
Lebron only needed 27 ppg because his sidekick had a 26 PER and was top 5 across the board in 2012 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48)
So Lebron is the classic case of what happe
In 2012 LeBron led the league during the regular season in:
PER, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP. His DRTG per 100 was a career low of 97 and he was All Defensive 1st team (along with being the MVP).
For the 2012 playoffs, LeBron led the league in:
PER, WS, OWS, DWS, WS/48, OBPM, BPM, VORP. They entered the Finals as underdogs and won convincingly, with LeBron winning FMVP.
It was an incredible season by any measure, but most importantly he dominated from a relative perspective and was fully deserving of individual accolades gathered along the way. His usage was 32.0 in the regular season and 33.4 in the playoffs.
Is it his best year? I think that's debateable. However three things I can say for certain are:
i) it was a truly exceptional year
ii) trying to compare it directly to other seasons from a different era in a specific context is a fool's errand
iii) whatever comparison or point you are trying to make, raw box score stats will probably prove a poor way to make it
Sure but AD is carrying the team as much or more than Lebron.. It's impossible for an all-timer to have a losing record when they have the #4 all-time PER at sidekick who is a David Robinson-level player..
If you think that you either aren't plugged into the Lakers closely or want to see something that isn't there. AD has had a good season, and I concede his box stats have endured on more availability. But he is less efficient in lots of ways and his night to night play is uneven.
The Laker's MVP on the season is LeBron, as validated by the In Season tournament award. That is not to say AD has been other than good (he may make 3rd team All - NBA still, we'll see) or that the Lakers supporting cast has been hopeless. They're 17 - 9 across their last 26 games since mid January and that's a function of better rotations and impactful contributions from Russell et al.
We're all stupid to some extent for engaging in this debate. But trying to have any standard of discourse is impossible if one side is trying to claim primacy over everything. MJ was a better passer, MJ was a better rebounder, MJ was better with the Wizards than LeBron was last year and this year. This stuff is objectively silly.
It doesn't have to be this way. The LeBron side can concede that the Decision was a misstep and that he performed poorly in the 2011 finals. MJ was a better natural scorer with a bigger "bag". It would be silly to argue these things. Consistently the pro MJ side refuse to concede anything, so yes this *IS* stupid.
That because u take into account the entire season for 2002.
Mj got injured but pre injury he would have done much better imo.
LeBron tore a tendon in his foot, lost a month and was in a walking boot in Feb 2023, he still made all-nba 3rd team.
What I don’t understand is this ,
For 2003 mj was just finish with 2 bad knees with a bad team but he still played all games and seem he was not a legit good players near all NBA right ?
2003:
NBA3 /mvp 11 —> (SF) Jamal Mashburn 21/6/5
Per: 18 TS%: 507 eFG%:.460 Vorp: 3.5
2004
Mvp 9 — > (SF) LeBron james 20/5/5
Per: 18.3 TS%: 488 eFG%: .438 Vorp:2.9
I chose SF because that what Mj was playing those years .
2003
Washed up (?) —> (SF) 40 years old MJ 20/6/3
Per: 19.3 TS%: .491 eFG%: .450 Vorp: 2.8
That seem pretty close to both players being like top 10 mvp for both players or allnba 3team (Jamal Mashburn) in the last year mj played ?
What am I missing ?
Seem to me with just a little bit of rest by missing some games like today era and having just a little better team then poor team he had it was feasible ….
In 2003 Jamal Mashburn beat out all these players for all-nba. All the voters thought these players were better players than Jordan was in 2003:
ORV C Yao Ming
ORV F Karl Malone
ORV F Shawn Marion
ORV C Zydrunas Ilgauskas
ORV C Vlade Divac
ORV G Steve Francis
ORV G Ray Allen
ORV G Gary Payton
ORV F Rasheed Wallace
ORV G Allan Houston
ORV C Pau Gasol
ORV F Brad Miller
ORV C David Robinson
ORV F Peja Stojaković
Give it a rest. No matter how much you try to scramble the eggs a new way, Jordan was never all-nba calibre.
We're all stupid to some extent for engaging in this debate. But trying to have any standard of discourse is impossible if one side is trying to claim primacy over everything. MJ was a better passer, MJ was a better rebounder, MJ was better with the Wizards than LeBron was last year and this year. This stuff is objectively silly.
It doesn't have to be this way. The LeBron side can concede that the Decision was a misstep and that he performed poorly in the 2011 finals. MJ was a better natural sco
I believed Jordan was the GOAT even right after 2020 finals but by a small margin.
What Bron put together the last 4 years was enough for me to overtake Jordan.
Right now I have Jokic as one of the greatest talents the NBA has ever seen and is racking up GOAT equity as we speak. A few more years of this and he will start stealing votes. However the casuals might never vote for him since he isn't flashy like Kobe or Curry.
Jokic has GOAT equity for sure, I’d wonder if he will keep his body and / or want to play until his late 30’s. But he is playing transcendent basketball right now.
Jokic has GOAT equity for sure, I’d wonder if he will keep his body and / or want to play until his late 30’s. But he is playing transcendent basketball right now.
Agreed.
[ x ] goat production rate... [ x ] potential for goat Finals record/team ceilings... [ x ] swept AD/Lebron with no all-star teammates (wins with chemistry not talent, aka organic)... [ x ] organic... [ x ] low time-of-possession player with low turnovers yields great chemistry and fits, which allows winning with less
Jordan was injured in Game 47 and played 14 more games after that - he took a break and tried to come back again but then fizzled out - he averaged 15 on 39% after the injury but was 1 of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 pre-injury, while also averaging 27/6/6 in the 20 games leading up to injury (29/6/6 in last 10).. He also had 3 game-winners and many 40 or 50 point games...
GTFO, you and Montrealdonk keep ignoring my point.
What was his TS%? I'm not impressed by 25 ppg and a TS% way below league average.
Using your cut-off of Feb 7th, he had 25.1 ppg on 42 FG% and 17% 3pt.
The injury killed his playing time, but not his efficiency. His efficiency was already bad.
Wizards Jordan wasn't close to all-NBA, stop coping and telling me what his ppg was as an inefficient chucker.
Joker the GOAT offensive player like I said at the beginning of the season. Funny to see media pundits and experts saying it now.
The box score and advanced stats say it and the eye test only further confirms it.
No one can control the game like Joker and make decisions as quickly and efficiently as he can.
Jamal, MPJ and AG are lucky to be playing with such a transcendent player
That because u take into account the entire season for 2002.
Mj got injured but pre injury he would have done much better imo.
What I don’t understand is this ,
For 2003 mj was just finish with 2 bad knees with a bad team but he still played all games and seem he was not a legit good players near all NBA right ?
2003:
NBA3 /mvp 11 —> (SF) Jamal Mashburn 21/6/5
Per: 18 TS%: 507 eFG%:.460 Vorp: 3.5
2004
Mvp 9 — > (SF) LeBron james 20/5/5
Per: 18.3 TS%: 488 eFG%: .438 Vorp:2.9
I chose SF beca
It doesn't matter how much you cherry-pick Jordan's injuries, his efficiency was still awful in 2001-02. I don't care what his ppg was when his TS% was way below league average.
And why the hell are you comparing him to rookie LeBron? Rookie LeBron was not all-NBA, and this whole argument was about Wizards Jordan also not being all-NBA, because he was an inefficient chucker.
In 2012 LeBron led the league during the regular season in:
PER, WS, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP. His DRTG per 100 was a career low of 97 and he was All Defensive 1st team (along with being the MVP).
For the 2012 playoffs, LeBron led the league in:
PER, WS, OWS, DWS, WS/48, OBPM, BPM, VORP. They entered the Finals as underdogs and won convincingly, with LeBron winning FMVP.
Jordan led all the advanced stats as well but he also led in the most important category and the only category that a team must lead in order to win a basketball game - that category is scoring.. A team can win with less assists or rebounds or PER, but they can't win with less scoring.
So unfortunately, your list of categories lacks the most important category of scoring - Lebron didn't need to score much in 2012 because his teammate had a 26 PER and was top 5 in everything across the board (better season than Pippen ever had) - Wade is one of the best scorers of all-time and top 3 all-time at his position.
Essentially, your rebuttal to Jordan scoring more (era differences) isn't supported by anything, whereas the numbers support that Jordan needed to score more due to weak scoring help (no 26 PER and no all-time scorers among his teammates).
If you think that you either aren't plugged into the Lakers closely or want to see something that isn't there.
When you say "plugged into the Lakers closely", do you mean watching the mainstream biased LeMedia coverage of lies and misrepresentations?
No.. I don't watch that and don't need to... I already know what will happen because I understand the effects of Lebron's game - we've seen it for 21 years now - his skillset (big-man ball-domination - the worst kind of ball-domination) underachieves his roster's talent, such as turning preseason favorites to underdog or loser (2011-2016 & 2021), or simply losing as the series favorite (and league favorite), or simply having a weak record with completely stacked casts (this year and many other years).
Christian Wood would be the 4th-best player on the 1st three-peat Bulls, but he's completely buried on this Lakers' team.. It's sickening to think how every GM in the league beefed up this Laker roster, either consciously or unconsciously going along with the media narrative (the narrative to get Lebron up there with Jordan and perpetuate the fake debate).
AD has had a good season, and I concede his box stats have endured on more availability. But he is less efficient in lots of ways and his night to night play is uneven.
The Laker's MVP on the season is LeBron, as validated by the In Season tournament award. That is not to say AD has been other than good (he may make 3rd team All - NBA still, we'll see) or that the Lakers supporting cast has been hopeless. They're 17 - 9 across their last 26 games since mid January and that's a function of bette
Stop treating AD like a boy, aka "AD had a good season".... that's so patronizing and downplaying his greatness, smh.
AD confirmed that he could lift a lottery team to champion in 2020 because that's exactly what he did - he made the so-called GOAT a 2nd option and turned the Lakers' the defense from worst to first - it's literally the greatest 2-way turnaround of a team by a player in the history of the NBA... Then he dominated Jokic in the WCF and led the league in playoff scoring, which carried Lebron to the Finals.. Lebron was lottery in the West without AD.
Btw, Lebron won the 2020 FMVP because he was the best player in the championship series and by that criteria (best player in the championship), AD was MVP of the in-season tournament - you and other Klutch Sports victims might be okay with Silver changing the criteria to fit Lebron but most fans aren't.. Intelligent people are waking up to the fraud that is Lebron..
Btw, AD is currently leading Lebron in PER, WS/48, DWS, OWS, RPG, BPG, FG%, FT%, TO's and more - he destroys Lebron in defensive impact while being ahead on offense due to being "the man" against the top teams.. It's only "bron-ball" vs non-elite teams, but it's always AD-ball against the top teams, so that makes AD's 25 ppg more valuable than Lebron's 25 ppg.. Accordingly, AD is clearly the MVP of the Lakers and has been since he arrived - Lebron is lottery out West without AD, so AD's presence is the only reason the Lakers even have a winning record and possibly on that contender level.. It's actually Lebron's weak brand of ball that is preventing the Lakers from having a dynasty, since any team with AD and another all-timer should have a dynasty.
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I believed Jordan was the GOAT even right after 2020 finals but by a small margin.
What Bron put together the last 4 years was enough for me to overtake Jordan.
Instead of having a dynasty like any all-timer should have with another all-timer, Lebron and AD produced this trash for the last 4 years:
2021 - 1st Round loss with 2-1 lead as the preseason favorite and defending champion
2022 - biggest underachievement ever (missed play-in with 3 top 75 players) - this occurred due to Lebron's worst-ever fit with Westbrook (inability to fit with teammates and have great chemistry like expert jumpshooters do, aka Curry, Kobe or MJ)
2023 - upset sweep loss to Nuggets (Lakers considered the hottest team entering playoffs... due largely to a run that was spearheaded when Lebron was out)
2024 - barely over .500 with the most stacked cast in the league - many examples of stackedness such as Christian Wood averaging 21/9 on other teams but buried on Lakers, or D-Lo is 3rd and 4th option for the first time in career, and many more examples of stackedness such as having the best sidekick (either AD or Lebron)
And it doesn't seem like you're subtracting Lebron's failures like the 2019 or 2022 - you're just looking at the "successes" (outlined above) and not subtracting massive failure like 2019, 2021 or 2022..
And this is the first time in history that things aside from titles are considered "successes" and great things, such as making WCF or losing in 1st Round, or getting swept - these things are now considered "successes" that put someone over the goat... lol.. gtfo
Can we give LeBron a 5th Championship then for his High School National Championship?
LeBron spent what would have been his senior NCAA season dragging the Cavs to the Finals including his GOAT like performances against the Pistons.
I'm not sure what is to be factored in here, really? Jordan could have gone straight to the NBA, but chose not to. He could have chosen to play on beyond 1998, but he chose not to. Finally, he could have chosen to make better decisions as Wizards GM and built a more c
The point being, which you have utterly whiffed on, is PART OF WHAT HAPPENED is Kareem's college career, Jordan's college career, Magic's college career, etc. The GOAT discussion is not restricted to the NBA ... college and international also count. I clearly stated all beyond prep counts, because it counts. Because they happened. And LeBron's college career did not happen. So where LeBron picked up in extra years in the league he loses sans college Hall of Fame performance, as per the others I listed.
You get zero points out of 100 for grokking that. I mean like you count all the players careers from age 18 on, not some from 18 and some from 21 and some from 22. If you're serious.
A complete one-off like Isiah's 16 points in 90 seconds or Miller's 8 points in 9 seconds or whatever it was..
So Lebron's Game 5 was one of the most overrated performances ever because it was a one-off and he was otherwise horrific in the series (21 ppg on bad efficiency).. He only needed 25 on 45% overall to win that series, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career and it shows how weak the conference was..
His overrated performance in the ECF against the weak Pistons was confirmed in the Finals when he proved to be a 22 ppg player with horrific efficiency against top teams in the playoffs - this was the case in 2007 or 2008 (the 08' Celtics held Lebron to 26 on 35%).. So he actually sucked in 2007 or 2008 and you shouldn't laud his overrated performances those years because he stunk against top teams in both years (locked up by 07' Spurs & 08' Celtics)..
After getting locked up in 2007, 2008 and then historic upset in 2009, he melted down in 2010 and was locked up again in 2011 before getting carried in other series - this includes only 22.8 ppg to win the 2014 ECF and many more low production series that confirm a weak conference or teammates leading him in scoring.. (imagine Jordan winning the East with 22.8 ppg, smh)
Btw, responses to the other parts of your post regarding 2012 season or AD are here
He only needed 25 on 45% overall to win that series, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career and it shows how weak the conference was..
Literally a complete lie.
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 finals which the Bulls won.
This singular fact destroys your narrative that Jordan "won most with the least help."
Complete bullshit.
Literally a complete lie.
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 finals which the Bulls won.
This singular fact destroys your narrative that Jordan "won most with the least help."
Complete bullshit.
The 96' Finals confirmed that Jordan won with the least help because he beat a top team or Finals team with 15.7 on 34% from his sidekick
When did Lebron beat a top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?
With Pippen MIA once again, Jordan was forced to carry a bed-wetting sidekick vs top team and also carry the scoring load on the championship level (defeat max defensive attention), both of which Lebron never did because he lacks sufficient scoring ability..
To effectively carry the scoring load vs top teams (defeat max defensive attention), a 1st option must have sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat top teams, which is why ball-dominators like Magic and Lebron have epic upset losses while trying to carry the scoring load in 1990 or 2009 Playoffs for example - they're too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade or AD... Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can effectively carry the scoring load and therefore win with less scoring help like non-franchise guys or secondary, non-elite producers like Klay, Pippen, Wiggins, & Pau (a far cry from elite-producing, franchise guys like Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie + franchise guys at 3rd option as well)
This need for the most help is why ball-dominators are at the end of my top 10 list behind centers and expert jumpshooters, who needed far less help.
Literally a complete lie.
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 finals which the Bulls won.
This singular fact destroys your narrative that Jordan "won most with the least help."
Complete bullshit.
Furthermore, Lebron's overrated performance in the ECF against the weak Pistons was confirmed in the Finals when he proved to be a 22 ppg player with horrific efficiency against top teams in the playoffs - this was the case in 2007 or 2008 (the 08' Celtics held Lebron to 26 on 35%).. So he actually sucked in 2007 or 2008 and you shouldn't laud his overrated performances those years because he stunk against top teams in both years (locked up by 07' Spurs & 08' Celtics)..
After getting locked up in 2007, 2008 and then historic upset in 2009, he melted down in 2010 and was locked up again in 2011 before getting carried in other series - this includes only 22.8 ppg to win the 2014 ECF and many more low production series that confirm a weak conference or teammates leading him in scoring.. (imagine Jordan winning the East with 22.8 ppg, smh)
Literally a complete lie.
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 finals which the Bulls won.
This singular fact destroys your narrative that Jordan "won most with the least help."
Complete bullshit.
The difference is the opponent and what Lebron is capable of against top teams.. It's true that Lebron carried the scoring load and carried bed-wetting sidekicks in the 07' ECF just like MJ's 96' Finals but the difference is that MJ did it against a top team such as top 5 SRS or Finals team (aka "top teams"), while Lebron never carried bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams and never carried scoring load on championship level (never defeated max defensive attention).
He never had that kind of carry-job against top teams and this a 21-year sample, aka he isn't capable of carrying bed-wetting teammates vs top teams or carrying scoring load on championship level (defeating max defensive attention)
To effectively carry bed wetting teammates over top teams, a 1st option must have sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat top teams, which is why ball-dominators like Magic and Lebron have epic upset losses while trying to carry the scoring load in 1990 or 2009 Playoffs for example - they're too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade or AD... Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can effectively carry the scoring load and therefore win with less scoring help like non-franchise guys like Klay, Pippen, Wiggins & Pau (a far cry from elite-producing, franchise guys like Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie + franchise guys at 3rd option as well)
This need for the most help is why ball-dominators are at the end of my top 10 list behind centers and expert jumpshooters, who needed far less help.
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Greatest left-hand drive ever?
Literally a complete lie.
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 finals which the Bulls won.
This singular fact destroys your narrative that Jordan "won most with the least help."
Complete bullshit.
This is exactly the kind of posting/poster I don’t get ….
Previously I told you Jordan was running at 27-6-5 on 44% shooting in his last 20 games pre injury and 29-6-6 on 47% shooting in his last 10 games pre injury trending up and up and you disregard it and said he suck’s because his TS% was below the league average in the .400 .
You're full of crap.
He only played 7 games after coming back from injury.
His TS% was still below average before the injury. He was averaging 24.3 ppg on horrible efficiency, so who cares? That's not anywhere close to all-NBA level.
Like I said, old Jordan with diminished athleticism was not a good offensive player. Without the ability to constantly get to the FT line like in his prime, and without a 3-point shot, you're left with hero-balling long twos all the time. It's bad offense.
Occasionally
My narrative?
You mean my facts? Is TS% a narrative now?
Enlighten me how .468 TS% is good? League average was .520.
And before you bring it up, no he wasn't much better pre-injury. Those last 7 games didn't tank his efficiency, it was already bad.
Ok fair enough .
But then u bring Jordan saying he sucks in 96 final ,
changing the stats you said was important (TS%) with old Jordan ,
To stats in the 96 final that seem to have no value for old Jordan pre injury ?
Unless I’m mistaken with my calculation in the 96 final .
The first 3 games the bull won to take the lead 3-0 MJ did 31-5-5 with TS%: .590
Shouldn’t that be considered pretty good ?
Yeah ok the last 3 games he played wasn’t stellar with 23-7-3 on TS%.485
ending up as a whole of 27-5-4 with TS% .537% seem good enough ?
Mj seem to totally dominating his team in the first 3 game .
His last game was difficult in shooting but he almost finish with a triple diuble 22-9-7 .
What am I missing ?
What’s stats is more important to you ?
Do you have trouble reading?
Fallguy said that if Jordan shot 45% for a series it would be his worst series ever.
Which is clearly false because he shot 42% for the Sonics series.
I agree, and it supports the idea that Jordan in fact had a great supporting cast during his 3-peat years.
Fallguy only sorts by ppg when doing his naive analyses that conclude that Jordan carried his "bed-wetting teammates" to championships. Those "bed-wetting teammates" were some of the best defenders and rebounders in the league, which fallguy never mentions.
Agree ,
I loved the team mj had with great D and rebounding but those basket still needed to be made .
FWIW I think fall guy point on mj having a big scoring load to make those basket is fair tho .
In 96 final mj had an average of 29% of all the team pts and even tho in game 5 he made 33% of the point it still wasn’t good enough and they lost .
If we extrapolate to todays game with an average of 115 per games , that would put mj at 33 ppg , just behind Luka .
I always though Luka should have a team like mj , I just feel it would have much better result instead of great scorer beside him ?
The argument that only Jordan had rebounders and defenders is nonsense - everyone else had that too and Lebron played with more good rebounder, defenders and shot-blockers than Jordan.
So why is Jordan the only guy where we look at his rebounders and defenders?... The reality is that everyone had rebounders and defenders, but only MJ lacked great scoring help.. Only MJ had to carry the scoring load at the level that he did (vastly more than anyone else - a BIG gap) and in addtion to carrying the scoring load, no one carried bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS or Finals teams like MJ - no one had more carry-jobs vs top teams
