What to do with TT facing a huge 3B pre?

I think he is a good player. But it's hard for me to say, as I haven't logged a ton of hours with him at the table. When we were both grinding 1/3, he table-hopped so frequently it was rare for us to be at the same table for more than a couple orbits.

Some in our circle say he's a luck-box. I think he just plays fairly tight pre and hyper aggro post. I think I was told he's just barely above break-even at 10/10, and apparently he had a big downswing over three days early this year, like $9k.

What little experience I do have playing against him, he always seems to have thick value when I'm bluffing, but I've been over-folding to his aggression so much that I don't really know what his bluffing frequency is. It's not just me. It seems like his aggression gets most opponents to over-fold.

Like I said in my last post, initially I did view this as a jam-or-fold spot pre, but after thinking about it the last two days, I think his play is just printing if our response is jam-or-fold when we're IP. I think the better response is to flat call with big PP's and good suited AX combos, with a plan to call his flop jam whenever the board is favorable.

Thinking about his range, I do think it's a lot of 66-99, maybe TT/JJ or even QQ, the trashier AX suited combos, and possibly some trashier Broadway combos, like KQo and AJs. I don't know if he'd ever play AA/KK or AK this way, unless he's playing the meta-game, expecting me to spaz-4B-jam with TT-QQ and AQs.

If we play this as a jam-or-fold pre, I don't know what we're jamming, other than AA/KK and AK, which is why I don't think we should jam anything when he takes this sizing, if we're planning to call his flop jam a lot. I'd think we'd want AA/KK and AK in our range on the flop when we call pre.

If he doesn't have JJ+, easy push. Flatting with a psb behind is just bad with any hand.

You asked what hands I would call with if I'm folding TT.

I would rather call w AQs, AJs, KQs, even ATs than TT because I want hands with better postflop playability. Thats why TT is better to jam than call and this flop is the perfect example of why. I would call w QQ and maybe JJ, but thats kind of where the line is for me.

You are mentioning thinking about this spot as jam or fold like a lot of people are saying and saying that he is printing vs that strategy. But i think there is a bit of a misunderstanding. Its not jam or fold w entire range, its jam or fold with TT specifically. I think everybody is just saying TT is not a good hand to call with.

I dont think it's much use to think too much about wacky lines like this. Its going to happen so rarely and its going to be very player specific as to what it means. You may not ever even see this guy do it again. Its not like hes going to be able to exploit you with 8x 3bets from oop.

There are so many juicy spots to just take people to value town in live poker you dont need to worry about if a maniac is exploiting you the one and only time he does something weird in a preflop spot where you have almost nothing invested. Just fold with a hand that will be hard to play unless you flop a set.

This is how I screwed this hand up.

There was also a bit of confusion because of how he stacks his chips. Instead of stacking them in columns of 20, he had two tall columns, one of $5 chips and one of $25 chips. When I asked how much he had left behind pre-flop, he refused to give me a count or break his columns down, so I had to eye-ball it.

In game, the raise size was so confusing, and his refusal to give me a count kept me from stopping long enough to think about what his range looked like when he took the sizing he did. Had I given it more thought, I might have realized he didn't have JJ+.

Then again, we do have some history, and he knows I'm capable of 4B'ing light, so in the back of my mind, I was wondering if he was trying to induce me to spaz-raise.

Are people jamming AA pre here? Are they ONLY jamming AA? If they're only jamming AA, and folding everything else, then they're jamming or folding with their entire opening range. It's not just jam or fold with TT.

If people are jamming hands other than AA, then there are hands they're jamming and hands they're folding. It's still jam or fold everything in their opening range, unless there's a group of hands that would be flat calls.

V's 3B was 1/3 of his stack. If we think that makes him pot-committed, why would we jam anything other than AA, or AA/KK, or AA/KK and AKs? Where do we draw the line?

For that matter, if we think he's pot-committed, and will jam 100% of flops, why would we jam anything pre? Why not just call pre, with a plan to evaluate whether or not we want to call his flop jam? I would think we'd want to see a flop first with AKs.

If we think he's NOT pot-committed when he takes this 3B sizing, why jam AA, if we think he'll fold pre, but might jam flop if we just flat call? If we think he might fold to a jam pre, shouldn't we have some 4B bluffs?

Knowing he made this play with 77, and that he jammed flop when we flat called pre, how can we NOT have a calling range here? Maybe TT isn't in that calling range, and should be a jam or fold pre. But which is it, a jam or a fold, now that we know he can make this play with 99-?

I don't agree that we can simply fold everything we wouldn't want to 4B jam here because we'll never see this 3B sizing again. If that's our response, then using this raise sizing from the blinds is printing.

Maybe we won't see a 7.5x 3B from the SB, but surely we'll see opponents taking wacky lines in other spots. Are we just going to fold whenever an opponent makes a huge polarized bet? If so, then making huge bets with weak hands should be a very profitable strategy.

I don't think we should have a flat calling range for 1/3 of effective stacks. I would always shove JJ+/AK. If you are going to flat call, it should be with hands like KQs/KJs/QJs, which hit many flops. Kind of ridiculous to flat big hands to protect your flat calling range. I don't see why we need to be balanced at all in this weird situation.

I would fold pre and obviously fold the flop.

He is risking 900 to win 60. So he isn't exploiting you if you call like JJ+/AK or QQ+. It is possible TT is a call though.

Awful play by villain, but works out well when hero flat calls out 1/3 of his stack and folds the flop.

I think calling was the worst option pre and now you have to fold flop. I think this is a 4-bet jam. Not sure what my jamming range would be here...

99+, AQ+, AJs, KQs maybe

It seems to me he’s making it 300 to send you the signal that he’s calling the last 600 if you jam. To me that would remove aces and kings from his range and make me want to stack off. I would assume he has AK a lot.

Calling and trying to have an overpair with tens is not a valid solution.

If we're continuing pre due to player dynamics we would need to jam (which would only be another 3x and hope there's some FE left). It's unlikely if we flat it's gonna go c/c/c to the river.

We opened for 8x and he then 3bets us to 7.5x....we can't set mine ovb. and we might have SDV but we're gonna have to gii by the river most likely to find out. I don't see how we can call pre.

Not sure if multi-quoting like this is frowned upon here. Please forgive me if so. When I start a thread, I feel like giving most, if not all posts a response is basic courtesy.

Still thinking about this one, and taking everyone's subsequent posts into account, I'm not certain I was right that we should have a flatting range here. Maybe we shouldn't. I'm open to being persuaded towards a different view.

I think the logic of having a flatting range comes from the suspicion that his 3B sizing is polarized, but possibly, if not probably weighted towards weaker PP's and worse AX combos, combined with the suspicion that when he does this, he's going to fold all his worse PP's to a 4B jam, but otherwise jam just about every flop when we flat call.

If we're going to play this as a fold-or-jam, and if we don't know if he's ever doing this with big PP's and better suited AX combos, I'm not sure what our 4B-jam range should look like, but if we're unsure, I think we'd want to keep it even tighter - QQ+/AKs, just to hedge against the possibility he's also doing this with AA/KK/AKo.

If we're going to have any flatting range, I'm not sure I'd love doing it with KQs-QJs, because of the potential to flop a dominated top pair.

Not surprised. Also not sarcasm. Reading your posts, my takeaway is you're playing more conservatively, less exploitatively than I do, and probably more fundamentally sound.

Unless I'm thinking of someone else, I seem to recall you posting a lot of equity calcs. If we think he's going to jam every flop, and we're only planning to call if we flop an over-pair or better, which will happen 30.5% of the time, does it seem more defensible to call with TT, when we're being laid ~3.7 to 1 implied odds here?

It is terrible with 99-, if I jam pre or call flop. It's probably also terrible with better PP's, if I fold pre.

I honestly have no idea what he was thinking, and even though we're part of the same circle of friends, he's kind of a d1ck when it comes to not telling anyone what he had in any hand where he didn't show, nor explaining his reasoning when he does something like this.

I'm not sure if TT should call here. I think the fact that I wasn't willing to jam nor fold points to how cuspy TT is. Facing this insane raise sizing, I'm not positive we should be calling with anything, rather than approaching it as a jam-or-fold spot, nor am I sure what our range looks like for fold, jam, or call.

We'll flop an over-pair or better with TT 30.5% of the time. For JJ, it's 43%. So, yeah, JJ+ is significantly better than TT in that regard, whereas TT is a little cuspy, given the implied odds of a jam and the SPR going to the flop.

If we're planning to call his flop jam if we have an over-pair or better, TT is just good enough to call, when we're being laid 3.7 to 1 implied odds.

Hoping not to sound too defensive of my decision, I think calling pre is defensible, and possibly the best decision, for the reasons I've given. If we jam, we may only get called by better. If we fold, we could be folding the best hand, especially against this particular V.

Calling pre allows us to see the flop, and see what he does on the flop. It forces him to follow through with his bluffs, at the risk of us snapping him off, and follow through with his value, at the risk of us snapping him off when we improve or folding when we don't. Even if we're behind pre, we'll still flop a set 11.8% of the time.

When I called pre, I was committed to calling off a flop jam on any flop that didn't have over-cards to our TT's, expecting his range to be heavily weighted towards worse PP's and AX.

With TT, we'll flop an over-pair or better 30.5% of the time. Assuming he's going to jam every flop, we were getting 3.7 to 1 implied odds on calling pre-flop, so calling with TT seems okay.

In game, I wasn't sure he would call off the rest with a worse hand if I jammed. This seemed like a high-risk gambit he was making, hoping I'd fold. But it also occurred to me that he might be trying to bait me into spaz-jamming if he did indeed have a huge PP or AK.

With TT, we're going to flop an over-pair to the board (or better) 30.5% of the time. That doesn't seem like quite good enough direct odds to jam pre, if his range is truly polarized, and includes bigger PP's and AK.

But when we're already thinking V might not be willing to call off the rest of his stack pre with his entire range, it's reasonable to think he might not jam every flop, so calling with TT seems like a reasonably defensible play here.

Just to clarify - we were playing with a $10 straddle every hand, so my raise was 4x, and that was over 1 limper. The "standard" opening size with no limpers was $30.

I was pretty sure he was either trying to bait me into spaz-jamming because he had a big PP, or he wanted me to fold, because he had a worse PP or some weird AX combo. If we're giving him a polarized range like that, jamming pre doesn't make much sense, unless we're sure he's going to call off the rest of his stack with his entire range, not just the hands that have ours crushed.

I wasn't calling to set-mine. I was calling with the intention of calling a flop jam if we flopped an over-pair or better, or jamming if he checked to me on a low-middling flop.

Honestly, I wasn't able to do the equity calcs in my head in-game, but logically, it seemed like calling was the correct play, when he's forced to act first on the flop. He has to decide if he wants to follow through with his bluffs, knowing I could snap him off on a lot of flops, or he can jam for value, knowing I could call with better and fold worse.

TT will flop an over-pair or better 30.5% of the time. He started the hand around $900, and with the dead money in the pot, I was being laid 3.7 to 1 implied odds on a call.

Believe me, I didn't love calling pre, and I hated folding on the flop, but I think both were logically defensible, if we're committed to calling a flop jam with an over-pair or better.

I think not having any flatting range here is too robotic. I would flat QQ-AA for sure and probably JJ. This dude is young, he's aggressive, he's down. Just let him spew off his remaining $600 in chips. Why give him a chance to fold? Yeah it's not GTO, but who cares? Neither is an 8x 3 bet.

That said calling TT here is a little questionable. The problem is 70% of the time there will be at least one overcard on the flop. J might be okay, but we will have to fold vs the A and the K, and the Q isn't great either.

I fold pre here but don't think the idea of flatting a large % of this player type's stack is as terrible as people on here are making it sound.

For those advocating shoving JJ - do you think he is ever calling with worse after we have 4 bet shoved over his enormous 3 bet? Hell no. And you can't fold it either vs this player type. So easy flat IMO. TT is just a lot worse than the single pip would indicate as there is so much more overcard potential

Thank you for advocating for a flatting range here. I think flatting with some range, rather than viewing this as a fold-or-jam spot with our entire range, makes the most sense.

As for what that flatting range looks like, I don't think we can make a blanket decision about TT being in that range or not. The more I think about this, the more the range seems dependent on the implied odds, and the odds of flopping a hand that can call a flop jam.

To do this, we need (or at least I had) to make some assumptions pre flop. My assumptions started out with his range being pretty polar when he takes this sizing. Maybe he's got AA/KK and is trying to induce me to spaz-jam with a worse PP. Or maybe he has a lower PP or some AX combo that just wants to take the pot down without seeing a flop.

My second assumption is that he's probably going to be jamming A LOT of flops, if not EVERY flop. Also built into my assumptions is that he might NOT jam some flops. Like, if he has AA, he might not jam a JT9 flop, or if he has 66-99, he might not jam an AK2 flop.

Lastly, before we call, we have to be willing to commit to calling a jam at least some of the time. I decided I was going to call if I hit a set (duh), or if I flopped an over-pair or better.

I thought that was the most logical response to his 3B. As it turns out, the math seems to support it. TT will flop an over-pair or better 30.5% of the time, and we were being laid 3.7 to 1 implied odds, enough to make the call with TT.

The higher the SPR going to the flop, the more hands we can call with. If he started the hand closer to $800 effective, then I think our calling range becomes JJ+.

I don't mind a flatting range, but I would shove JJ+, because he is probably calling getting 2-1, and you don't mind much if he folds, because even against that range, you aren't that much better than 2-1. You don't want to let him see 3 or 4 cards before deciding whether to get the rest of your money in. You could theoretically flat with AA or AA/KK to trap and for balance, but no point in balancing against this play.

You don't really have such implied odds with TT, as your overpair is no good if he has a higher pp. I don't think this is a good hand to flat with.

It is unbalanced, but flatting with suited broadway might be good, as you hit the flop decently about half the time, so getting that information is useful, more so than with TT.

If you believe this you need to play like you believe it. In this case that means all in vs the 3 bet as you think you are way ahead most of the time and never way behind. You know this guy much better than we do.

Calling with TT and then folding the 60% or so time you don't make an overpair, set, or straight draw is bad. If you are going to take that approach, then you need to go with any flop with one overcard not an ace also. The problem is villain can have an larger or smaller overpair. Presumably the reason for not shoving is you are worried about JJ+, and if you flop an overpair, you are still 10% against JJ+.

Exactly, one of the worst hands to flat with.

And if you do flat with TT, you need to gii on most flops. However, if you flat TT, this is a good flop to fold on.