Education in the United States
We have a thread devoted to academic freedom at universities, and we have a thread devoted to whether higher education should be subsidized. This thread is a landing spot for discussion of other issues related to education -- issues like school integration, pedagogy, the influence of politics on education (and vice versa), charter schools, public v. private schools, achievement gaps, and gerrymandering of school districts.
I'll start the discussion with two articles. The first deals with a major changes in the public school system in NYC.
NYC's public schools are highly segregated for such a diverse city. Last Friday, Bill DeBlasio announced the following:
Middle schools will see the most significant policy revisions. The city will eliminate all admissions screening for the schools for at least one year, the mayor said. About 200 middle schools — 40 percent of the total — use metrics like grades, attendance and test scores to determine which students should be admitted. Now those schools will use a random lottery to admit students.
In doing this, Mr. de Blasio is essentially piloting an experiment that, if deemed successful, could permanently end the city’s academically selective middle schools, which tend to be much whiter than the district overall.
DeBlasio also announced that:
New York will also eliminate a policy that allowed some high schools to give students who live nearby first dibs at spots — even though all seats are supposed to be available to all students, regardless of where they reside.
The system of citywide choice was implemented by former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg in 2004 as part of an attempt to democratize high school admissions. But Mr. Bloomberg exempted some schools, and even entire districts, from the policy, and Mr. de Blasio did not end those carve outs.
The most conspicuous example is Manhattan’s District 2, one of the whitest and wealthiest of the city’s 32 local school districts. Students who live in that district, which includes the Upper East Side and the West Village, get priority for seats in some of the district’s high schools, which are among the highest-performing schools in the city.
No other district in the city has as many high schools — six — set aside for local, high-performing students.
Many of those high schools fill nearly all of their seats with students from District 2 neighborhoods before even considering qualified students from elsewhere. As a result, some schools, like Eleanor Roosevelt High School on the Upper East Side, are among the whitest high schools in all of New York City.
Here is the New York Times article that describes the changes:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/nyreg...
Obvious questions for discussion include:
- How large a priority should cities place on ensuring that city schools are representative of the city as a whole?
- Are measures like the ones that DeBlasio is implementing likely to be effective in making schools more representative?
- Will these measures have unintended (or intended) consequences that extend far beyond changing the representativeness of city schools?
I guess you can ascribe a secret, subconscious motivation to any group, but never in my life have I heard a personal acquaintance say anything that led me to believe that this "cynical desire" had ever crossed their mind.
Sure so please explain the troves of liberals which defended public school closures during COVID while their kids went to private schools that reopened far sooner.
Sure so please explain the troves of liberals which defended public school closures during COVID while their kids went to private schools that reopened far sooner.
If Kelhus were correct, I could ask him to explain why he believes that liberal white "elites" historically have supported affirmative action.
Sure so please explain the troves of liberals which defended public school closures during COVID while their kids went to private schools that reopened far sooner.
Again, by the time any schools started reopening (private or public), I didn't know a single parent who was opposed to all schools reopening.
And to the contrary, I knew several parents of children in public schools who were quite frustrated with the teachers' union.
Again, by the time any schools started reopening (private or public), I didn't know a single parent who was opposed to all schools reopening.
And to the contrary, I knew several parents of children in public schools who were quite frustrated with the teachers' union.
It is actually interesting, because elites did get frustrated at the response to Covid, because it actually negatively affected them and their children (although much less than lower classes, because of access to tutoring and their willingness and ability to put in more sacrifice themselves to educate their children***).
Public school dysfunction, which has been going on far longer and is far more pernicious, is an abstract thing to them that bothers them much less, exactly because they don't feel the effects of it, and may actually indirectly benefit.
This isn't ever going to happen for a lot of reasons, but I absolutely believe elites would magically figure out a way to vastly improve the public education system if we abolished private schooling and they were forced to send their children to public schools.
*** This is something liberals dont like to talk about, like IQ, because they view it as boorish. But the truth is much of the reason for liberal success is their willingness to put time and effort into their children, in ways lower classes just wont, even when they have the ability to. Asians are generally so generationally successful (at least economically) exactly because this is a cultural norm that even lower classes do.
It is actually interesting, because elites did get frustrated at the response to Covid, because it actually negatively affected them and their children (although much less than lower classes, because of access to tutoring and their willingness and ability to put in more sacrifice themselves to educate their children***).
I know so many people who you would define as elite who send their kids to public schools. It's true that many of those schools are in wealthy neighborhoods in Manhattan and Brooklyn and that the schools resemble de facto private schools for that reason. But that's a different gripe.
Also, I see in the bolded that you already are walking back your claim that liberal "elites" have a cynical desire to sabotage the lower class through inadequate public schools.
Also, I see in the bolded that you already are walking back your claim that liberal "elites" have a cynical desire to sabotage the lower class through inadequate public schools.
???. The passage you highlighted acknowledged my belief part of the reason elite are agnostic towards public school dysfunction is they benefit. I dont really see how that is walking anything back.
Anyways, I am not arguing it is some conspiracy where secret cabals meet to sabotage the school system. I dont believe in that kind of stuff. You will have to talk to Luckbox if you want to talk about overt conspiracies. But I think it is human nature at some level of consciousness that you will support a dysfunctional situation that you view as benefiting you much more than one that you view as not benefitting you. And it is my opinion this is what is playing out in this situation.
Sure so if someone was asking for private schools to be forced to close as long as public schools, that would have been coherent completly, utterly wrong, but coherent) and that's not what i am talking about.
What i am talking about are the people who promoted public school closures while THEIR KID WERE ALLOWED TO GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS
Again, by the time any schools started reopening (private or public), I didn't know a single parent who was opposed to all schools reopening.
And to the contrary, I knew several parents of children in public schools who were quite frustrated with the teachers' union.
So you have never heard of that thing called "democratic party", which has a lot of parents among their files.
Do you really want me to find the list of politicians, pundits and so on affiliated or members of the democratic party which after the first private school was opened, were still campaigning on public schools staying closed?
Evey single person who was saying "it's ok if public schools are closed" without also saying "and we should mandate private schools to close as well" is guilty of that accusation by dunyan you seem to believe applies to no one.
If you are a democrat-affiliated person, public school gets closed, and you move your kid to a private school or any other form of live tutoring with other kids, and you still don't use all your power, influence and so on to get public schools reopened, ie if you ban poor and middle class kids from having live education because of covid, while you pursue a live education for your kids, you are a true immoral monster.
Agreed/disagreed?
Sure so if someone was asking for private schools to be forced to close as long as public schools, that would have been coherent completly, utterly wrong, but coherent) and that's not what i am talking about.
What i am talking about are the people who promoted public school closures while THEIR KID WERE ALLOWED TO GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS
I have no idea who you're yelling at here. Most people were generally in favor of all schools moving to distance learning during the pandemic.
I have no idea who you're yelling at here. Most people were generally in favor of all schools moving to distance learning during the pandemic.
Lucium,
FYI Trolly isn't going to break his "babe in the woods" character. So it is up to you to decide how much you want to engage his bad faith.
I have no idea who you're yelling at here. Most people were generally in favor of all schools moving to distance learning during the pandemic.
The first couple of months at most, not up to 2 years.
I don't know why you are lying here on stuff which can be measured objectively.
According to pew polls
In July 2020, more K-12 parents said health risks to students (64%) and teachers (61%) should be given a lot of consideration in decisions about reopening schools than said the same about the possibility of students falling behind academically without in-person instruction (54%). By February 2021 – when many schools that had been providing online instruction were deciding whether to reopen for in-person instruction – six-in-ten parents said academic considerations should be a major factor, while smaller shares pointed to health risks to teachers (47%) or students (45%).
So already in february 2021 majorities were in favor of reopening.
Back to the topic, private schools reopened in many cases several months earlier than public ones. And democrat-affiliated monsters (the partisan divide here was exceptional, like 99-1, it was basically ONLY democrats and no one else) kept public schools closed much longer , even when private schools were open. While in many cases sending their own kids to private schools, or setting up live educational opportunities for them to keep up academically. The same opportunities they deprived normal people of.
Lucium,
FYI Trolly isn't going to break his "babe in the woods" character. So it is up to you to decide how much you want to engage his bad faith.
I can at least point out when he lies objectively to make his "points", whatever they are (unclear in this case).
I don't think he can deny plenty of democrats politicians, journalists and so on sent their kids to live education while keeping public schools closed.
Btw in normal countries private and public schools closed and reopened togheter, because it was either an health issue that justifies that exceptional freedom limitation or not, and if it is , it is for everyone in an area.
???. The passage you highlighted acknowledged my belief part of the reason elite are agnostic towards public school dysfunction is they benefit. I dont really see how that is walking anything back.
Anyways, I am not arguing it is some conspiracy where secret cabals meet to sabotage the school system. I dont believe in that kind of stuff. You will have to talk to Luckbox if you want to talk about overt conspiracies. But I think it is human nature at some level of consciousness that you wil
"Cynical desire to sabotage" implies some level of self-conscious motivation imo, but as I speculated previously, I guess this is some sort of Freudian examination of the subconscious, so never mind.
"Cynical desire to sabotage" implies some level of self-conscious motivation imo, but as I speculated previously, I guess this is some sort of Freudian examination of the subconscious, so never mind.
Just what a liberal elite would say.
Joking aside, I would love to know which posters here Kelhus considers "liberal elites".
If you are a democrat-affiliated person, public school gets closed, and you move your kid to a private school or any other form of live tutoring with other kids, and you still don't use all your power, influence and so on to get public schools reopened, ie if you ban poor and middle class kids from having live education because of covid, while you pursue a live education for your kids, you are a true immoral monster.
Agreed/disagreed?
This hypothetical hypocrisy argument isn't going to work among the people I know. I don't know a single person who moved their kid out of public school and into private school during the period when public schools were closed.
The first couple of months at most, not up to 2 years.
I don't know why you are lying here on stuff which can be measured objectively.
According to pew polls
In July 2020, more K-12 parents said health risks to students (64%) and teachers (61%) should be given a lot of consideration in decisions about reopening schools than said the same about the possibility of students falling behind academically without in-person instruction (54%). By February 2021 – when many schools that had been providing onl
You are oversimplifying what was, to a large degree, a negotiation with organized labor. New York City originally planned to reopen public schools for in person learning at the beginning of the 2020-2021 school year, and in fact did so for many weeks at the beginning of the school year. But there were parallel negotiations with the teachers' union about what level of infection rate would trigger a mandatory return to work for teachers. Those negotiations, and escalating infection rates in the late fall and winter, resulted in a few rounds of starting and stopping.
You are oversimplifying what was, to a large degree, a negotiation with organized labor. New York City originally planned to reopen public schools for in person learning at the beginning of the 2020-2021 school year, and in fact did so for many weeks at the beginning of the school year. But there were parallel negotiations with the teachers' union about what level of infection rate would trigger a mandatory return to work for teachers. Those negotiations, and escalating infection rates in the
And why should they have closed anything no matter infection rates, after a vaccine was available (and pseudo-mandated as well)? to help antivaxxers case? it's incredible they even started that "negotiation", if a demand goes against logic in full and is devastating for kids, you simply don't listen to it.
It's either infection rates justify closing down schools in general, then you close private schools as well, or they don't, so you don't close any school. I am not even sure how it can be legal to close public schools because of infection rates in the community but not private schools. Can they simply close schools by fiat even with no scientifical justification at all?
There was a glitch in the kindle so this link doesn't work. Both kindle and paperback will be available in a few days.
In any case, math in the United States is taught badly and its not that hard to fix.
There was a glitch in the kindle so this link doesn't work. Both kindle and paperback will be available in a few days.
In any case, math in the United States is taught badly and its not that hard to fix.
I am sure everyone ITT who was scrambling to pre-order before they sold out will be mightily relieved.
I currently have 10 Audible credits stacked up because I've used other means of getting audiobook titles lately. If you sit down and read this book into a microphone, I'll buy it.
Please limit the number of, "See accompanying PDF for figure 873.4". It does say conversational!
And why should they have closed anything no matter infection rates, after a vaccine was available (and pseudo-mandated as well)? to help antivaxxers case? it's incredible they even started that "negotiation", if a demand goes against logic in full and is devastating for kids, you simply don't listen to it.
It's either infection rates justify closing down schools in general, then you close private schools as well, or they don't, so you don't close any school. I am not even sure how it can be legal
Whether and for how long schools should have been closed is a different discussion. I was responding to your bullshit hypocrisy argument.
A while back, Kelhus suggested that liberal politicians mostly send their kids to private school, which as far as I could discern was a baseless assertion.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
There is a very credible argument to be made that schools were closed for too long and that public policy with respect to schools during the pandemic was somewhere in the range of misguided to outright terrible. But that policy wasn't motivated by the sorts of things that you and Kelhus imagine.
