Education in the United States
We have a thread devoted to academic freedom at universities, and we have a thread devoted to whether higher education should be subsidized. This thread is a landing spot for discussion of other issues related to education -- issues like school integration, pedagogy, the influence of politics on education (and vice versa), charter schools, public v. private schools, achievement gaps, and gerrymandering of school districts.
I'll start the discussion with two articles. The first deals with a major changes in the public school system in NYC.
NYC's public schools are highly segregated for such a diverse city. Last Friday, Bill DeBlasio announced the following:
Middle schools will see the most significant policy revisions. The city will eliminate all admissions screening for the schools for at least one year, the mayor said. About 200 middle schools — 40 percent of the total — use metrics like grades, attendance and test scores to determine which students should be admitted. Now those schools will use a random lottery to admit students.
In doing this, Mr. de Blasio is essentially piloting an experiment that, if deemed successful, could permanently end the city’s academically selective middle schools, which tend to be much whiter than the district overall.
DeBlasio also announced that:
New York will also eliminate a policy that allowed some high schools to give students who live nearby first dibs at spots — even though all seats are supposed to be available to all students, regardless of where they reside.
The system of citywide choice was implemented by former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg in 2004 as part of an attempt to democratize high school admissions. But Mr. Bloomberg exempted some schools, and even entire districts, from the policy, and Mr. de Blasio did not end those carve outs.
The most conspicuous example is Manhattan’s District 2, one of the whitest and wealthiest of the city’s 32 local school districts. Students who live in that district, which includes the Upper East Side and the West Village, get priority for seats in some of the district’s high schools, which are among the highest-performing schools in the city.
No other district in the city has as many high schools — six — set aside for local, high-performing students.
Many of those high schools fill nearly all of their seats with students from District 2 neighborhoods before even considering qualified students from elsewhere. As a result, some schools, like Eleanor Roosevelt High School on the Upper East Side, are among the whitest high schools in all of New York City.
Here is the New York Times article that describes the changes:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/nyreg...
Obvious questions for discussion include:
- How large a priority should cities place on ensuring that city schools are representative of the city as a whole?
- Are measures like the ones that DeBlasio is implementing likely to be effective in making schools more representative?
- Will these measures have unintended (or intended) consequences that extend far beyond changing the representativeness of city schools?
Whether and for how long schools should have been closed is a different discussion. I was responding to your bullshit hypocrisy argument.
A while back, Kelhus suggested that liberal politicians mostly send their kids to private school, which as far as I could discern was a baseless assertion.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
There is a very credible argument to be made that schools were closed for too long and that public policy with respect to schools duri
Bullshit? Ok when at PC i will link some democrats which were in favour of keeping public schools closed whose children were in private school
There is a very credible argument to be made that schools were closed for too long and that public policy with respect to schools during the pandemic was somewhere in the range of misguided to outright terrible. But that policy wasn't motivated by the sorts of things that you and Kelhus imagine.
I'm open to being wrong and would welcome any evidence with open arms with any statistics eluding that the kids weren't damaged too greatly and that the adults wellbeing will be returning shortly to 2019 levels. But I think people are really ****ed up right now. The statistics of the youngsters with anxiety and depression now is pretty real and I don't feel that I see the same level of self worth and positivity from folks as before covid. Sure, it most certainly saved some % of the olds that would have ended up all being dead now anyway but you've certainty got about 3 generations needing some serious help for a long time.
This is all while riding the back end of an imposed, completely transformed, booming economy that would become super sensitive to hiring freezes and layoffs that the indicators are suggesting. I honestly think we need a miracle to avoid any kind of serious socio-economic disaster in the near future that I think will absolutely be credited to the school and business closures. Yes, put me in the camp in thinking that those decisions was a bigger **** up than what is being expressed.
Anyway given the topic, are we clear that teacher unions are a malignant force working against the education of Americans? Enemies of the people if you will?
Public sector unions shouldn't exist legally in the first place (they have the vote to address problems with their employer, unlike private sector employees), and anything that weakens teacher unions (like pushing charter schools) is a moral good and imperative.
So republicans are morally on the right side of history here, and democrats are siding with the enemy of the people on this issue and actively damaging america on this issue.
Edit: *american teachers unions. In many other countries they behaved far better. Still they shouldn't exist as public sector unions are an oxymoron
Think of the damage done by police unions if you think I am attacking the left exclusively (I am not) by attacking public sector unions
Anyway given the topic, are we clear that teacher unions are a malignant force working against the education of Americans? Enemies of the people if you will?
Public sector unions shouldn't exist legally in the first place (they have the vote to address problems with their employer, unlike private sector employees), and anything that weakens teacher unions (like pushing charter schools) is a moral good and imperative.
So republicans are morally on the right side of history here, and democrats are s
Get excited much? Every single topic you have an opinion on (which is pretty much all of them), one side is "moral", "just", righteous, the other side is "immoral", "unjust", "enemies of the people", evil. You know that not everything must be viewed through such a polarised lens, right? I mean, we're talking about schoolteachers here, not Charlie Manson followers.
Get excited much? Every single topic you have an opinion on (which is pretty much all of them), one side is "moral", "just", righteous, the other side is "immoral", "unjust", "enemies of the people", evil. You know that not everything must be viewed through such a polarised lens, right? I mean, we're talking about schoolteachers here, not Charlie Manson followers.
Every single political topic I care about a lot yes. If there weren't clearly evil and clearly good sides I wouldn't care that much about a topic.
I tend to care about things where it's very clear which direction would bring incredibly positive results yes.
Where things are muddied, and that's very often the case in general, my stance is far less committed.
But ofc you will find me talking more about topics where I think it's absolutely clear what should be done, what is better given alternatives.
"We are only talking schoolteachers" isn't a reason not be very very angry at them.
I can give you a list of stuff where I am not committed if you care about it, in the generic trend d2e4
Wrt education I am not sure at all which curricula would be optimal (for K12), nor if European style high school tiering is preferable to open course approach for high school.
I am not sure which role the state/government should play wrt financing research and higher education.
I am not sure how to regulate home schooling to guarantee minors aren't actually abused/deprived of an actual education in those settings.
I am not sure about which credentials are optimal for teachers, if any. I understand both positions and I don't have a clear idea of what would be clearly better.
I am not sure how much if any to teach about religion in k-12 schools.
I am not even sure if people pushing for high school to start later because science actually claims adolescents can't perform very well early in the morning on average, but I understand the costs of having high schools starting at like 10 am.
I am not sure if as a society we should push for ever-increasing years of education for the median person or not, I can see both sides points.
I am not sure about community colleges going back to be nearly free or not in the USA, it looks like a reasonable proposal but it might backfire.
But I am pretty damn sure teachers unions are a demonic source of evil which devastates education in the USA, and to a far lesser extent isn't a positive in other countries as well.
Got the idea?
I meant topics that are discussed on this forum (not necessarily this thread). None of what you listed has been discussed here as far as I know. My point was that you seem to have very strong opinions on most or all topics that are actively discussed on this board, at least in the threads I read.
I meant topics that are discussed on this forum (not necessarily this thread). None of what you listed has been discussed here as far as I know. My point was that you seem to have very strong opinions on most or all topics that are actively discussed on this board, at least in the threads I read.
well this thread is about education and I gave you a significtlist of topics debated regarding education on which I am not committed at all and I would rather see well thought positions discussing pros and cons
Bullshit? Ok when at PC i will link some democrats which were in favour of keeping public schools closed whose children were in private school
I'm going to let you in on a secret. You can find some people in any group who are raging hypocrites. That doesn't prove that a hot take generalization about the group is correct.
I'm going to let you in on a secret. You can find some people in any group who are raging hypocrites. That doesn't prove that a hot take generalization about the group is correct.
Probably not the group of people who engage in introspection 3 hours per day seeking to root out any hypocrisy.
I'm going to let you in on a secret. You can find some people in any group who are raging hypocrites. That doesn't prove that a hot take generalization about the group is correct.
I think when it's the leaders or the loudest voices it isn't the same as when it's some random people in a group.
Like when it's bojo, and Newsom, who don't follow COVID distancing rules after mandating lockdowns.
Or when politicians close down their state and mandate masks then fly to Florida where they don't wear masks and have parties.
Or like when they put up a mask in public during tv recording then immediately remove it afterwards.
Or as discussed when they keep public schools closed while sending their kids to open private schools.
I think when it's the leaders or the loudest voices it isn't the same as when it's some random people in a group.
Like when it's bojo, and Newsom, who don't follow COVID distancing rules after mandating lockdowns.
Or when politicians close down their state and mandate masks then fly to Florida where they don't wear masks and have parties.
Or like when they put up a mask in public during tv recording then immediately remove it afterwards.
Or as discussed when they keep public schools closed while sen
Can we see the examples of politicians and journalists who advocated for keeping public schools closed at the same time they were sending their own children to private schools that were open? I assume those examples were your basis for saying:
Have you found examples yet of politicians who loudly advocated for keeping public schools closed at the same time they were sending their own children to private schools that were open?
I thought you didn't care because hypocrisy is common so i didn't collate the proofs yet.
But one of the most famous cases is Newsom
By MACKENZIE MAYS
10/30/2020 04:19 PM EDT
SACRAMENTO — Gov. Gavin Newsom said Friday his children have returned to in-person learning under a “phased-in approach” as many schools across the state remain shuttered due to Covid-19 — including nearly all public schools in Sacramento County where the governor lives.
The news: Newsom said at a news conference that his four children, ages 4 to 11, have returned to classrooms in some capacity.
Newsom’s children attend a private school in Sacramento County that has a hybrid schedule that alternates remote and in-person education before it will return full-time next month, according to a source. POLITICO is not naming the school for privacy reasons.
“They’re phasing back into school and we are phasing out of our very challenging distance learning that we’ve been doing, so many parents are doing up and down the state,” Newsom said Friday when asked about his own children’s education.
Sacramento County schools are allowed to open classrooms under Newsom’s reopening system. But the county’s large public school districts — including San Juan Unified, which serves Newsom’s neighborhood — have yet to do so. Some Sacramento County districts plan to reopen elementary schools next month, while San Juan has a January goal date. Sacramento City Unified has yet to propose a reopening date.
///
He kept saying schools had to reopen but didn't use his power to do so (unlike republican governors elsewhere fighting against democrat school councils). Why should he care anyway, his kids were in private school.
And yes having the power to open school and not using it is advocating for school closure, no matter what you say
6 months later his own neighborhood was still discussing purple, red bullshit and hand't reopened schools yet. Public schools that is
I thought you didn't care because hypocrisy is common so i didn't collate the proofs yet.
But one of the most famous cases is Newsom
By MACKENZIE MAYS
10/30/2020 04:19 PM EDT
SACRAMENTO — Gov. Gavin Newsom said Friday his children have returned to in-person learning under a “phased-in approach” as many schools across the state remain shuttered due to Covid-19 — including nearly all public schools in Sacramento County where the governor lives.
The news: Newsom said at a news conference that his four c
Yeah, no one cares, man.
Great. Where is the part where Newsome was advocating to keep public schools closed at this time?
I live in CA and was following this. In fairness the governor only has so much power. I am not sure what Newsom could have done to force the deep blue counties in the Bay Area and Los Angeles to open public schools sooner. Most of California did open their schools much sooner than San Fran, Sacramento and Los Angeles.
He didn't make a political stunt out of it and go to war with the teachers unions the way a Republican governor probably would have; but it isn't obvious even if he had it would have done much. A lot of control is local.
In fairness to Newsom, there is a lot of political infighting within the CA Democratic Party between progressives and more centrist party democrats; and he normally is on the centrist side of things, which doesn't necessarily mean he gets his way, as I said before a lot of control is local.
I live in CA and was following this. In fairness the governor only has so much power. I am not sure what Newsom could have done to force the deep blue counties in the Bay Area and Los Angeles to open public schools sooner. Most of California did open their schools much sooner than San Fran, Sacramento and Los Angeles.
He didn't make a political stunt out of it and go to war with the teachers unions the way a Republican governor probably would have; but it isn't obvious even if he had it would
Correct. This is exactly the dynamic that Luciom doesn't understand.
And yes having the power to open school and not using it is advocating for school closure, no matter what you say
I love how you just try to shut down debate about the most incorrect part of your post on which your entire premise rests. Newsom allowed schools to open but because he didn't force them to you pretend he was advocating for their closure.
I love how you just try to shut down debate about the most incorrect part of your post on which your entire premise rests. Newsom allowed schools to open but because he didn't force them to you pretend he was advocating for their closure.
my premise is democrats closed public schools while sending their kids to private schools.
now the counter has become that democrats aren't a single entity so if some democrats close schools, and others don't do anything to block that, that doesn't count as a personal responsibility of every democrat with the power to keep them open, and isn't the same as advocating to keep schools closed, even if it has the same effect (for public ones).
I get it when some democrats do heinous things, it's only about them, their voters and their colleagues have no role, when some republicans do heinous things, that's the responsibility of every republican voter and politician.
I get it when some democrats do heinous things, it's only about them, their voters and their colleagues have no role, when some republicans do heinous things, that's the responsibility of every republican voter and politician.
Doing heinous things is pretty much the republican brand, though.
my premise is democrats closed public schools while sending their kids to private schools.
There is no reason to believe your premise. Where is your evidence that most Democratic politicians send their kids to private school? Where is your evidence that most Democratic politicians advocated for different timing for the reopening of private schools as compared to public schools?
I know that you want these things to be true, but I haven't seen evidence that they are true. The limited evidence that I have seen points mostly in the other direction, as does my anecdotal experience.
