LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

lol, I hope you don't believe the above.

AD got huge props during the playoffs last year, particularly during the GS series. This is ultimately a strawman, of course LeBron and AD need each other in order to succeed. How could they not? This is the design of the team in terms of its cap consumption and on court construction. I think it would be fair to argue the current Lakers with AD / no LBJ is better balanced than when it has LBJ / no AD and would win a few more games over a full season. But that is about logical on court fit and positional depth, rather than AD > LBJ.

In terms of the facts:

• After LeBron hurt his foot last year against Dallas, he missed the next 13 games during which the Lakers went 8 5. He returned for the final 8 games of the season during which they went 6 - 2, winning the first play in game
  
• We've been over the 2021 season / playoffs a few times here, but both LBJ and AD were banged up coming towards the end of the season and it was a house of cards with either of them out. The Lakers got worse during the 2020 offseason period and the schedule was disadvantageous for the bubble finalists. And still they were 2 - 1 up and competing early in game 4 at home when AD went down...
  
• The 2019 Lakers were 20 - 14 when LeBron got injured on Christmas Day. He missed 18 games during which the LBJless Lakers went 6 - 12. That team was not good, and we know this. We can see what happened to those players since they left. Caruso and Ingram have become solid starters, but there is no argument whatsoever that adding AD instead of the young core increased title equity (they won the title because of it!)
  

I appreciate you are just trolling, but your post is absolute nonsense regardless.

And la most as good as Chet

I grew up with no blood no foul and all baskets count 1, so this is more or less how we used to think.

Am I the only person whose been watching NBA basketball since the early 90's, and prefers the higher skilled game of today?

Yes, the regular has become less meaningful, that was bound to happen. The all star game is big trash now. But come playoff time, the game is as good as ever.

I'm just not one of those olds who can't appreciate things as they change. Olds who can't appreciate new things is as old as time, and they're everywhere from NBA to MLB to pro wrestling and music and art and cars and boxing and everywhere in between. I think a real skill in life is to not be one of those cranky olds that think everything was better back in the day.

it's amazing that crap gets views.. how dumb are people wow

Those were the only shots available back then with the packed paints and lack of today's spacing strategy or hands-off beginner format

If today's players were forced to play in the environment of previous eras (less spacing, more physicality), they would be forced to take those mid-range shots and have superior instinct as required in high traffic spots.. But instead, today's beginner format allows players to get all the way to the rim every time (watch Ant highlights), so they never develop the contested shot-making ability that previous eras had in the 5-10 foot range (paint) or mid-range areas.

Oh wait.. We already saw exactly what happens when today's players are put in a tougher environment that is closer to prior eras - we get destroyed in international play by far weaker talent like we did in 2023 World Games or 2019 World games - people say the international game is tougher but is that an excuse to get blown away by Carlos Arroyo while the Dream Team beats better players like Sabonis, Kukoc or Petrovic?..

Today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format simply yields inferior players, aka ball-dominators, turnover machines, and players with weak instinct and touch due to today's beginner format.. However, today's game is better some things.. For example, since players are allowed to get all the way to the rim and don't have to take tough paint shots, they develop tremendous gather-step ability - seamless footwork on layups and of course threes - but everything else goes to prior eras such as contested shot-making ability on 2-pointers (previous eras had the same advantage on 2's that today's era has on 3's), basketball instinct, and passing (threading needles as required by no-spacing eras), post play, footwork, fundamentals

Btw, that's what people don't understand - previous eras had the same advantage on 2's that today's era had on 3's.. This is because previous eras didn't have today's 3-point strategy or focus, so they had to LIVE off 2's and highly-contested 2's.. Otoh, today's era lives off 3's, so they're better at 3's but lack everything else such as contested 2-point shot-making in the 4 to 20 foot-range - that's most of the half court.. Also, since today's game is based on the 3-point line, which creates an artificial 3's and layups strategy, it isn't real basketball... if we removed the 3-point line, every prior era would destroy today's era - the worst team from 1980 would destroy the best team from today (nuggets or celtics)

Here's why Lebron's stats don't win like they used to - he no longer has a monopoly on his playing style and he's actually become old-fashioned - many guys play like him now and some have taken it to another level

Luka and SGA dominate the ball better than Lebron, while Jokic passes better and Giannis gets to the rim better.. Lebron's plodding ball-dominance is old-fashioned compared to these guys..

So Lebron no longer has a monopoly on the full boxscore style of play (points, rebounds, assists)... Tons of guys play that way now and some have taken it to another level.. This is another reason why Lebron can't be goat because numerous guys in his own era surpassed him at his own style of play - they dominate and achieve superior stats than Lebron ever did playing that way..

Otoh, none of these ball-dominators have the win rates or towering dynasties that the expert jumpshooting and fundamental playing style achieves, aka Curry, Duncan, MJ, Kobe or Bird.. Players that facilitate ball movement will always win FAR more than ball-dominators - this is true historically and will continue to be true... Bird, Curry, MJ, and Kobe won a lot more than Oscar or Lebron, while Magic was led by Kareem but still only had 5-4 Finals record (9-10 for Magic/Lebron combined - if they can't have winning Finals records as ball-dominators, then it's impossible with that brand of ball, aka modern-ball)..

Btw, Lebron is getting 29/9/7 since the all-star break but other guys are getting similar numbers and they don't need to hunt for the stats as much - they're younger and can get the stats easier without sacrificing game flow or chemistry just to put up numbers... Paul Pierce is right - Lebron needs to step back and be the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team -because that's what he IS (and has been ever since AD arrived and turned the team from lottery to champion).

Compared to veteran all-stars, Lebron and Wemby stunk as rookies.

Rookie Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team but proceeded to be lottery because his PER was lower than 40-year Jordan - it was his only season with the old rules (hand-checking was allowed) and he struggled, but then exploded in Year 2 when the beginner format was implemented (no hand-checking + defensive 3 to clear paint).

Meanwhile, Wemby is unpolished, so he's just a stat-guy right now - he doesn't wear down defenses by having a consistent threat that they must adjust to or focus on - this threat would lead to counter-adjustments and breaking a defense down.. Wearing out a defense so they have less capacity for offense (applying more pressure than you face - winning the attrition battle) is how basketball games are won, and Wemby can't do this yet as a raw player that defenses don't have to expend energy defending because there's no consistent threat (unpolished).. He has a crazy poster every now and then to fool the nascent observer, but the reality is that he has a long way to go.. And I haven't seen a single second of him this year - I just understand the game of basketball.. what I just said is almost certainly what is going on because that's how hoops works

The 3-point line was an artificial addition to the game, so it shouldn't surprise everyone that it eventually made the game itself artificial, aka 3's and layups and every team playing the exact same way (as opposed to each team developing their own unique brand of ball to win, based on their personnel).

Get specific about the tiny sample size that you claim I used

I specifically only use big samples because I'm intelligent enough to know that small samples don't mean much.

Here's some massive sample sizes that I use:

* everyone in history needed elite-scoring teammates to lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, except the GOAT, who led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. So only the goat lacked great scoring help for his entire career.

* zero #1 offenses in 2 decades

* Unlike Jordan with Pippen, BJ, and Horace, Lebron never developed single-digit rookies into meaningful producers (zero young player development in 2 decades) - this is because he imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win - Lebron imposing spot-up roles is statistical fact - he reduces teammate assists and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing).

* Lebron-ball underachieves favored talent such as losing with preseason favorites, or falling to underdog - this happened in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2021 - he fell to underdog or loser basically every single time he was the preseason favorite (underachieved with favored talent)

Those are a few examples of big sample sizes from a few of my main talking points.

Do you understand that Anthony Edwards isn't capable of making any of those shots that I posted of Jordan??

That means previous eras were better at basketball because they could make those shots and today's player cannot.

Today's players can't make those shots because the spaced-out, hands-off beginner format doesn't require players to make those shots, so they never develop the skill, touch or go-to moves required to convert those shots.. The inferior touch and 2-point, shot-making ability of today's players, along with their inferior basketball instinct in less-spaced situations, and also inferior passing from today's super-wide mickey mouse beginner lanes - these things make today's player inferior.. So previous eras had better individual skill, while the quality of team basketball was far superior - teams didn't all play the same beginner style (drive-and-kick) like today's trash game

^^^ this is some simple crap that a teammate would point out to another teammate during a timeout regarding the defense of an upcoming inbounds play that they'll face coming out of the timeout

it's completely standard, but of course Lebron and JJ know they're dealing with unknowledgeable fans so it will seem like some genius stuff that NO ONE ELSE COULD EVER FIGURE OUT

lol gtfo... what a waste of time and space yet they have 500k views in less than a half a day... half a million idiots signed up within a few hours

why doesn't JJ Redick ask Lebron what he thinks the best brand of ball is, and the best way to achieve elite chemistry or a #1 offense, or grow young players from single-digits to meaningful producer - I'd love to hear what Lebron has to say these things that he's never done lol, aka LeFraud..

Or what's the best way to make sure a team achieves it's potential and the highest team ceilings/Finals records??.... lol.... Since he's never done these things, he would probably answer with a question and shrug: "more help?"... lol.......... Ultimately, Lebron is just a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy, team-hopping) and never learned how to WIN (chemistry, organic).. Of course Lebron's inability to foster great chemistry is skill-based - he lacks of expert jumpshooting skill and ability to play off teammates - the resulting reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win

This isn't a "take" - Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles and the resulting hinderance of young players, elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching is the statistical and historical record.. A cursory glance at Lebron's career shows a bevy of bad fits/chemistry and teammates playing below capacity, or zero young player development in 20 years, thereby yielding underperforming teams and Finals records.
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I was having a bit of fun concerning Bron's teams having a lower win % with him out. In the 16 seasons between his first four and this year, I think the team was 15-1 in terms of higher win percent with him playing, many of them dramatically so. But it was quite a surprising anomaly that over those first four seasons when the Cavs were supposedly a one-man show, they went 9-3 without him, much worse with him. It may be as simple as low sample of course, or more that they sat him versus weak teams in those days as he certainly didn't "need" rest or wasn't dinged up yet. So anyway it looks like in 15 of his 21 seasons his team had a higher win % with him, and over all it swings way in his favor, of course.

No, coaches wouldn't let players take open threes. They actively discouraged it even at the NBA level.

^^^ In the absence of threes, the paint was packed, which meant that highly-contested paint shots and mid-range were the only shots available.

So if we transplanted the modern ball-dominator like SGA or Lebron into the 80's, they wouldn't have teammates spacing the floor for them, so they wouldn't have spacing for their drives and ball-dominance like they do today.. They would be forced to shoot over packed pants like everyone else back then, and this type of tough mid-range is Lebron's weakness - but it was required to be a great scorer back then.. So the lack of spacing confirms that today's ball-dominators would be inferior players in previous eras because the factor they need to play their best game didn't exist (spacing).

Btw, history shows that Lebron needs spacing to be MVP-caliber - Mo joined a bad team in 2008 and his league-leading spacing turned Lebron into MVP (Mo led the league in 3-pt makes per game)..

Otoh, MJ won more MVP's and 10 scoring titles without spacing... It's just another reason that MJ, Curry, Kobe and Bird (expert jumpshooters) are superior to Lebron - they didn't need spacing like Lebron does because they can shoot over packed paints.. they can LIVE off this and Lebron cannot... The lack of spacing and higher physicality (shown in gif above) would turn ball-dominators like SGA or Lebron into passive facilitators like Kidd or Magic.. The reality is that high-scoring ball-dominators are a new thing that was enabled by modern spacing strategy.
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TWOG’s essays arguing that jacking up contested midrange jumpers against packed paints was the pinnacle of basketball are beyond hilarious. @allblackdan do you claim this nonsense as your own?

It was the pinnacle of basketball because the unspaced, hands-on, physical format is the advanced format, while today's spaced-out, hands-off, and "no-impede" rules (no D) is the beginner format.

It's all about appreciating real skill... Today's game is for people who like easy, quick gratification because the beginner format yields dunks and great plays on nearly every possession.. It's hard to appreciate something that happens all the time, whereas fans in previous eras were more sophisticated like soccer or baseball fans because the format didn't yield easy plays on every possession - fans had to wait for great plays and these plays were superior than today's plays because they required more skill to achieve in the advanced format.. It's harder to score or assist without spacing than with spacing and the same goes for physicality and hands-on perimeter defense.

So when a player has a great score or pass in the advanced format, it means more than scoring or passing in today's easier format - previous eras had to thread needles and have quicker instinct and touch, while today's player gets massive lanes to make easy, predictable passes, while also being allowed all the way to the rim as a standard... When Bird made a great pass, it was a shocking feeling because it wasn't expected and you wondered how he saw the guy in the midst of all that traffic.. Similarly, when MJ smashed on a 7-footer, it was impressive because he usually didn't get a straight path and running head start like today's beginner format allows.

In addition to the tougher format that produced superior basketball players, previous eras had intangibles such as superior competitiveness and real rivalries, while today's game is cumbaya and everyone kissing each other's ass... Then there's brand of ball - previous eras had superior diversity in brand of ball, while today's format is a simpleton drive-and-kick format and spamming.. Today's format is akin to spamming the same thing over and over (3-point contest).
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Popovich agrees with everything in my last few posts - "there's no basketball anymore"

I dont agree with everything hes saying, but reading him going off and the reactions is solid entertainment

#IStandwithTWOG

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FYI:

preciate that brotha... good to know there are people that can't be brainwashed

By convincing people that he has great hoops IQ, people will ignore his low win-frequency (4 chips in 20 years) and chalk it up to circumstance and not some sort of issue with Lebron's game.. But the reality is that Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and ability to play off teammates (off-ball) - the resulting ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. These spot-up roles are statistical fact because Lebron reduces his teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)..

Accordingly, unlike Pippen BJ and Grant (who grew by leaps and bounds each year alongside MJ), zero rookies grew from single-digits to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch (zero young player development in 20 years).

Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles and the resulting hinderance of young players, elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching is the statistical record.. If he was so smart, he wouldn't have bad fits like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Bosh, Love, Jamison and many more.. And he would have a record of young players blossoming alongside him.

Accordingly, one of the biggest misconceptions is that he has all-time IQ, which flies in the face of bad fits, weak chemistry, zero young player development and underperforming teams... aka losing with preseason favorites, or falling to underdog with them from 2011-2016 and 2021, except the Allen miracle - basically every year that he was preseason favorite, he fell to underdog or lost (underachieved favored talent).. goat IQ doh

Here's funny reaction to the JJ/Lebron podcast... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFdhOadA...

I have massive legs and have never taken PEDs.

Might have something to do with me being able to deadlift almost 600 pounds.

I'm also a regular guy and not a professional athlete. LOL what is this garbage?

No one said that big legs = roids.....

It's going from bird legs to big legs that indicates roids, according to the GOAT bodybuilder - and we aren't just talking quadriceps - Lebron's calves are more indicative - but I suppose that you'll claim that he's calf-raising 300?...

otoh, you never saw Jordan's calves double in size like Lebron's - he always had bird legs.. Once bird legs - ALWAYS a bird legs, except for roid users apparently.