LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

No, only Mo Williams is credited with the Cavs success in 2009, since Mike Brown & Lebron were already there and stunk in 2008, while Jamison wasn't added until 2010 season.

Jamison and Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite but they were upset due to the 2nd major choke of Lebron's career - everyone witnessed the historic meltdown where Lebron QUIT according to all accounts - teammates and front office said Lebron quit on the team upon finding out his mother was a grown-up and occasionally dated other grown-ups.

Specifically, Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead after finding out his mother was dating - what kind of child would meltdown over that - so she isn't allowed to have a good time?... You're the only man in her life and you meltdown when another man enters? What a child Lebron proved to be in that moment... "b-b-but it's my MOMMY".... no seriously, why did he meltdown - what was the reason other than him being a child in his own mind?

The historic meltdown in 2010 was the 2nd choke of Lebron's career because his first choke was the 2009 ECF when he melted down in the critical 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series (7 TO in 4th quarter)..

It's impossible to win close games if the star player turns into a 12 turnover per game player in crunch-time (last 5 within 5) like Lebron did for that entire series..

So Lebron had meltdowns and chokes for 3 straight years (09-11'), while 2013 was another massive choke because he only averaged 23 on 43% thru 6 games (another big choke) but Ray saved his career.

2007 1st Round

JAMISON............ 32/10 on 48%
LEBRON'............. 28/10 on 43%


Career

JAMISON........... 20,042 points in 37,638 minutes.... 18.1 PER
PIPPEN.............. 18,940 points in 41,068 minutes.... 18.6 PER

I'm not arguing who is the superior player, but I'm pointing out that it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your third option as Lebron did in 2010... Accordingly, the 2009 and 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - this is the historical record - the Bulls never had a 3rd scorer like Jamison or Mo, while their defenses ranked 7th, 4th and 7th for the 1st three-peat (inferior to the 09' & 10' Cavs who ranked 3rd & 7th).

Lebron simply gave up a year early even though his Cavs had the chemistry and reputed defense to beat the Mavs - a 1-star organic chip was up for grabs in 2011...

Lebron waited 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, so his Cavs teams were always quite good and far better than Jordan's Bulls casts.

For example, MJ would never have the "worst Finals team ever" with the East all-star center and an acquisition that was already much better than 1990 Pippen:

05' HUGHES........ 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.......... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D

MJ would obviously 5-peat with a player that was already better than 1990 Pippen + the East all-star center + good coaching

Is this a not so subtle nod to Jordan's gambling issues?

Bronny once again proving he is a disgusting human, promoting gambling to kids, like he needs the cash...

“A disgusting human”

lol, gtfo

LOL right. Jordan the degenerate gambler and Kobe the adulterer have so much more integrity.

Your desperation is showing.

Yeah like the one thing you can’t label against LeBron is him being a “bad” person. Married his high school girlfriend; good family man; has never been caught cheating, etc; gives generously to charity; speaks out on social issues. Few misguided decisions over the years, a few stances he should want back. But this is clearly a good person in the round, and a great role model when his cumulative dedication to the game across a quarter century is considered.

But it’s always been raw hate partially driving the Jordan stans. Hate and nostalgia, powerful emotions.

They have integrity in their profession, while Lebron is a proven colluder and deck-stacker that runs away from real competition

No one cares about their personal lives and it's pretty immature for Lebron to get personal with people like Barkley when they criticize him professionally

The only time I cheer for Lebron is when he speaks out against police - I really respect that he does that and only in that light (political activism), is he superior to Mikey.. Whether you agree with his stance or not, I give him props for speaking up... he has more of an "assassin mentality" in this regard than he ever had on the court

Averaged more? Did you score like 6 point in 2 games over 4 years?

Yeah, Shaq's 2nd son only averaged 1.8

In my prime, I would easily destroy either of his sons - I was better than them... And now, I could teach them a lot and vastly improve their game

Btw, people seem to forget the immediate aftermath of the 2018 Finals - Lebron was completely eliminated from GOAT consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFNO6Rqa...

Lebron's deck-stacking in the East was confirmed via lottery in the West the following year... Lebron would be lottery every year if AD never arrived, so what more proof is needed that this guy is a 100% fraud?... Let that sink in - lottery every year without AD
.

Oh I might have overestimated, I thought you were talking about Shareef, so maybe you scored 4 points across 2 games in your entire collegiate career?

Do you mind providing the specifics?

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Le7igc-Hf1c

Athletically, I'm superior... 100% quicker with plenty of hippities and Dr. J hands.

and in MY hood..........

bullies got bullied, while Shaq's sons were coddled by wealth and privilege.

in MY hood.....

crack was an epidemic that took down NBA guys like Jay Edwards, or gun trafficking nearly took down Zach, while his brother and other teammates of mine were gunned down (rip Roger, Rodney & Berry).

I remember my 15-under AAU team (recruited from all over Indiana) had Bonzi Wells and Courtney James, but a phenom from my hood named Jody McCain was considered the best player... Unfortunately, in MY hood, countless legends like Jody were cursed - getting out was considered fantasy..

I'm from the state that produces the most NBA players per capita - the waitress at the diner will take you to the court out back and shoot your eye out.. And I was lucky to land im the CAPITAL of this hoops state - Marion is by far the most legendary school in the state of Indiana and I played for it's goat coach (Bill Green).. If you think some softies that can't even scrape 2 ppg at the D1 level despite all the codding and advantages can **** with a ***** like me that cut his teeth on legends, legendary playground courts and a tough brand of ball - and made it out of Marion - then you're much dumber than I thought.

I guarantee that I'm a far superior post and mid-range player that would require a double -team when they're guarding me.. They would fear me and playing a reall dude with 90's mentality would be "different" to them.. I remember smashing on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row when Zach was already far superior than they ever were or will be...

Ultimately, I have all the same advantages over Shaq's softie sons that previous eras have over today's players - superior toughness, mentality, competitiveness, fundamentals, touch, instinct, post, feetwork, mid-range, and go-to moves.

The reality is that Shaq's sons wouldn't be discovered in my day - not good enough.. Guys like Jody flew under the radar for a while.. It wasn't like today where any bum gets a highlight video and recruited... you actually had to be able to play to get looks and sometimes it still wasn't enough.. Tons of studs didn't get discovered

You were the man back in high school.
What the **** happened to you?

Answer: 150+ banned accounts and endless copy pastas.

The barely coherent rants of someone who peaked way too early in life and needs a scapegoat for his lack of adult achievements. It all makes sense.

An old white guy from nowhere middle America devotes his time to lamenting the loss of “90s mentality” in basketball as a proxy for his own inability to make it; across a full decade of time and thousands upon thousands of forum posts.

At least allblackdan has his back.

If you were so good, why did you score just 4 points in your collegiate career?

Wait, are you saying that back in your day, tons of people were "not discovered" and thus removed from the talent pool despite being good? So you didn't even have to compete against those people and still had a worse college career than Shaq's sons?

Seems like a really good argument for Lebron vs MJ as well.

I wasn't anywhere near "the man" at basketball in HS... Think about a stacked Montverde team or something where the 5th option was raw athlete with D1 potential that averaged 7 ppg.. That was me - I was just an athlete and didn't start to develop until I got to college.

I was known much more for my academics in high school.. Even though I had a D1 offer from the Citadel, I had full academic scholarships from Bradley U and Boston U, which seemed like better options than a military school in the south.

When I dunked on Zach 4 times in a row during a game of 1-on-1, I was already in college at the time and had walked on to Bradley U - I was home for Thanksgiving and dropped by the Marion HS practices as an alum... I played Zach a bunch and practiced with the team.. I quit the Bradley team before the regular season started because the D1 load was too heavy for a 1st-time partier and full scholarship recipient that was required to maintain a 3.0... It worked out because I transferred to FIU as a junior and I won't go into too much detail about Miami... But safe to say it was good times.. Upon graduation I entered a Master of Science program at San Diego State and had career in finance.. I choose the Master's program over making 20k a year in Mexico playing pro-ball.

Fast forward to now and this is what it's all about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHCukE0V...

I quit after 2 games

Unlike Shaq's sons, I knew when to dump a bad hand - they'll keep hitting their head against the wall like a fly futilely trying to fly through a window, while I had the perspective to not waste my time going down the "i can make the league" rabbit hole.

It was a good experience though because I got to see the other side (aka being a player that played on a high level of competition), which provides the unique perspective that I have now.

There's always pluses and minuses..

Assuming 12 players per team, the current NBA allows the top 360 players in the world to be in the NBA, while previous eras only allowed the top 300 or 250 or whatever... So today's league is diluted in this regard compared to prior eras..

Infact, there's a chart that tallies the number of players used in a single NBA season since 2011 and the league has apparently been significantly diluted even since 2011....... 478 players were used in the 2011 season compared to 580 in 2022, so today's game allowed an extra 100 dudes to get shine in the league than even 10 years prior in 2011..

So the league is getting more and more diluted with crappier talent every day.. In addition to a more diluted league that lets hundreds of weaker players get shine that wouldn't get shine in previous eras, there's the rule changes and mentality changes (less competitive) that makes the league softer.

World population is up ~40% from the 90s, outpacing the roster size increase by a solid amount

If you keep TWOG talking for any length of time he will post an absolute stinker. This is up there with the ‘chucking is good, actually’ stuff or the ‘International game is weaker now than in 1992’ nonsense.

So you were bragging about beating up on a high school player as an alum in practice?

Are you this loser or is this just one of those self-help gurus you follow online?

okay maybe the league size argument wasn't a good point - I can admit that, while you guys have been wrong about everything else and react to this by changing the subject to my personal life and professional careers.

^^^ another misstatement of my position - it isn't a great strategy but it is a strategy and often the best strategy for bad teams.... Lebron would've made the 04', 05' or 19' Playoffs by being a great chucker but instead he needed to add a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs, or he added AD in 2020.

You guys saw zero benefits from a chucking strategy and I pointed out several such as big offensive rebounding advantages (which you didn't even know was an effect of the strategy)... And of course great chuckers control the game and pace with their high volume - defenses must actually defend the 35 shots of a great chucker and the ensuing scrambles for rebounds, so teams must be good enough to overcome this game flow that a chucker is dictating.. Ask the 15' Warriors or any number of MJ opponents about how tough that can be to overcome.

^^^ another misstatement of my position - the international game isn't weaker but apparently American basketball is because we lose to Nigeria and get blown away by Carlos Arroyo, while previous eras blew away better players or teams like Petrovic and Sabonis.

that's a pretty clear demonstration that Americans aren't as good at basketball as they used to be... and this happens for all the reasons i stated - the unspaced eras was the advanced version of the game that produced superior basketball instinct, passing, fundamentals, diverse strategies (not just drive-and-kick like today's game), and touch (contested shot-making ability on 2-pointers).

imagine if we removed the 3-point line - the worst team from previous eras would destroy the 17' Warriors.. the 1990 Clippers would sweep the 17' Warriors if we removed the 3-point line.. Today's players wouldn't make the league in the 70's.

uh... yes

I've dunked on 2 McDonald's All-Americans because I dunked on Evan Burns in open gym at San Diego State... He was disrespectful by trying to catch me from behind in transition like a Lebron chase-down but I anticipated it and double-pumped when he swung for the block... A great feeling then and now

Damn! An Evan Burns reference. I remember when he was going to be the guy who brought SDSU to prominence. So much potential. I didn't know of your Aztec connection. It all makes sense now why you're taking these schlubs to school on MJ. Go Aztecs! Please no repeat of the Fla Gulf Coast debacle today vs Yale.

But you routinely bash Lebron for 2015 even though the 2015 GSW were a better team than any team Jordan faced from 90-98, and 2015 Cleveland after the Irving/Love injuries was much weaker than any of those Bulls teams as well

You always start at a conclusion and then warp things to make it fit.

I see many times MJ being blame for not winning earlier because he had in his conference teams better then LeBron had ever faced in his own conference ?
So what ?
And those bulls were far weaker then LeBron team from 2012 to 2016 at minimum too .
That doesn’t stop people for blaming MJ right ?

we all can focus on 1 specific year and find flaws everywhere we look at for both of them .