Re: framing the abortion debate
Defend or criticize: "Torturing children and killing unborn babies are both bad things for people to do."
Mod Note: this was excised from the "higher education" thread.
Justices Thomas and Alito want to use a 'zombie law' to restrict abortion.
Comstock plan is not theoretical.
It’s an explicit component of Project 2025, the sweeping hyper-conservative,
right-wing Christian playbook ready for a second Trump administration to take up on Day 1.
Thomas and Alito signaled to anti-abortion forces that there are sympathetic ears
waiting to hear the right arguments for exhuming the corpse of this long-dead law.
Like all things in politics we really need to get the law more in line where mostly all of the country is which is close to center, which we can do if we start compromising instead of black/white policy. Make it permissible up to 10 weeks. I think it would be impossible to allow for instances of rape bc the process to prove that takes way longer and you'd potentially be setting up a scenario where men are getting accused so an abortion could happen. But there is the week limit that would help avoid those situations.
I have unfortunately had my gf back when we were 16 get an abortion and then a different gf did in my early 20s and I think about it often now what my life would be like if this didnt happen. It was their choice and I didnt disagree, but I dont think I would have objected if they wanted to have it. Now im 32 though and it feels like Im running out of time in a way as it will kinda suck if I end up passing away when my future kid isnt an adult. Or what if I keep having incompatible relationships and dont have a child. That would also suck. So maybe I do wish society really forced us to go thru with it.
Birth rates have really slowed which for sure is a problem. However its not that easy to afford to raise a family nowadays and ppl cant stay married for **** and so theres a lot as a society we need to get our act together. Can we though? Just listening to the political discourse can really bum me out to how moronic people have become and it seems like our stack is bleeding as a country.
Like all things in politics we really need to get the law more in line where mostly all of the country is which is close to center, which we can do if we start compromising instead of black/white policy. Make it permissible up to 10 weeks. I think it would be impossible to allow for instances of rape bc the process to prove that takes way longer and you'd potentially be setting up a scenario where men are getting accused so an abortion could happen. But there is the week limit that would help av
Your "compromise" position is not allowing victims of rape to get an abortion?
and 10 weeks.. lol.. let's "compromise" and do a law that even most republicans aren't crazy enough to advocate for on a national scale but this guy thinks is a "center" position. rightwing media brain rot stuff.
the compromise was Roe.
and 10 weeks.. lol.. let's "compromise" and do a law that even most republicans aren't crazy enough to advocate for on a national scale but this guy thinks is a "center" position. rightwing media brain rot stuff.
the compromise was Roe.
Roe was a decision by a court (so definitionally not a compromise) predicated on a constitutional invention (there is no trace of any abortion right in the federal constitution which is why for 100+ years it was legal for states to regulate abortion) , which set the "compromise" at the highest week amount of any country in the west by a large margin.
that, in a country where the population clearly favors abortion less than in most other western countries (just check all polls on that).
you can get a compromise in the USA but it will probably be 10-12 weeks, that's what polls say.
and that is only if federal regulation of abortion is actually legal which it might not be at all under Dobbs
Roe was a decision by a court (so definitionally not a compromise) predicated on a constitutional invention (there is no trace of any abortion right in the federal constitution which is why for 100+ years it was legal for states to regulate abortion) , which set the "compromise" at the highest week amount of any country in the west by a large margin.
that, in a country where the population clearly favors abortion less than in most other western countries (just check all polls on that).
you can get
cross check your polls with actual elections if you want to see what people think about abortion.
abortion restrictions are getting crushed to the point where most republicans won't even back anything under a 15 week if they aren't in the deepest of red places. but yet we're still talking like the consensus is 10?
cross check your polls with actual elections if you want to see what people think about abortion.
you vote for maaaaany things all together, same as when trump won in 2016 that didn't mean there were actual majorities behind every republican proposal.
you know the numbers for abortion in the USA, 85-90% are in favour at least for some exceptions, 55-60% against no question asked abortion even in the first trimester.
you might barely get a slight majority in favour of 10-12 weeks, or maybe 40% actually in favour 20% accepting it if after 12 weeks it's only for rare exceptions (this is the kind of compromise most countries in Europe got to, give or take a week or two)
you vote for maaaaany things all together, same as when trump won in 2016 that didn't mean there were actual majorities behind every republican proposal.
you know the numbers for abortion in the USA, 85-90% are in favour at least for some exceptions, 55-60% against no question asked abortion even in the first trimester.
you might barely get a slight majority in favour of 10-12 weeks, or maybe 40% actually in favour 20% accepting it if after 12 weeks it's only for rare exceptions (this is the kind
if this were actually true then why aren't major national level republicans endorsing those numbers? most of them aren't even trying to commit to the 15 week ban, in fact im pretty sure most republican senators are scared they will lose if trump commits to a 15 week national ban so much they are advising him specifically NOT to talk about it. sure you can pretend they care about state's rights, but they certainly don't. they care about winning. and they know its not a winning issue.
if this were actually true then why aren't major national level republicans endorsing those numbers? most of them aren't even trying to commit to the 15 week ban, in fact im pretty sure most republican senators are scared they will lose if trump commits to a 15 week national ban so much they are advising him specifically NOT to talk about it. sure you can pretend they care about state's rights, but they certainly don't. they care about winning. and they know its not a winning issue.
Because of how primaries work, same reason why democrat politicians know that's the case but they can't propose anything under roe if they want to be the democrat candidate even in a purple state.
In primaries you have to propose what the median primary voter thinks.
You will see if I am right if in September, republicans start to say 10-12-15 weeks in purple districts/states
Because of how primaries work, same reason why democrat politicians know that's the case but they can't propose anything under roe if they want to be the democrat candidate even in a purple state.
In primaries you have to propose what the median primary voter thinks.
You will see if I am right if in September, republicans start to say 10-12-15 weeks in purple districts/states
i don't understand what you are trying to say. why would republicans be scared of Trump coming out for a 15 week national abortion ban because of their own primaries?
and you think that republicans will try to campaign harder on abortion in purple states come november?
i don't understand what you are trying to say. why would republicans be scared of Trump coming out for a 15 week national abortion ban because of their own primaries?
and you think that republicans will try to campaign harder on abortion in purple states come november?
because they want to win primaries without having to discuss abortion, because anything they say to win primaries about that costs them in the general.
I think republicans will move to moderate positions in purple districts/states about abortion, when they feel it's needed to win
because they want to win primaries without having to discuss abortion, because anything they say to win primaries about that costs them in the general.
I think republicans will move to moderate positions in purple districts/states about abortion, when they feel it's needed to win
oh, the 10,12,15 were supposed to be "moderate" amounts. lol.. that's what confused me.
i sincerely hope republicans try for any ban let alone a 10, 12, or 15 week ban in general elections. that would be the best possible scenario for democrats. bring it front and center.
let's do it. put that 15 week abortion ban in the republican platform in bold print. let's see how this country votes on it. if the national consensus compromise is for something like 10-12 then republicans should obviously be trying to push at least 15.
Roe was a decision by a court (so definitionally not a compromise) predicated on a constitutional invention (there is no trace of any abortion right in the federal constitution which is why for 100+ years it was legal for states to regulate abortion) , which set the "compromise" at the highest week amount of any country in the west by a large margin.
that, in a country where the population clearly favors abortion less than in most other western countries (just check all polls on that).
you can get
It's incredible how you manage to be aggressively wrong on nearly every single issue, even with people patiently explaining to you your mistake.
oh, the 10,12,15 were supposed to be "moderate" amounts. lol.. that's what confused me.
i sincerely hope republicans try for any ban let alone a 10, 12, or 15 week ban in general elections. that would be the best possible scenario for democrats. bring it front and center.
yes allowing no question asked abortion even for a few weeks saying that's reasonable can already cost you your primary often enough.
but the smart ones know they will have to say that. but later, not now.
let's do it. put that 15 week abortion ban in the republican platform in bold print. let's see how this country votes on it. if the national consensus compromise is for something like 10-12 then republicans should obviously be trying to push at least 15.
remember that for many of them it should stay a state issue, and national consensus doesn't mean popular vote, rather purple state consensus (say Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan), popular national vote doesn't count in the USA. if 28 m Californians are pro free for all abortion, that weights like 600k people from Montana being against.
remember that for many of them it should stay a state issue, and national consensus doesn't mean popular vote, rather purple state consensus (say Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan), popular national vote doesn't count in the USA. if 28 m Californians are pro free for all abortion, that weights like 600k people from Montana being against.
59.2 to 40.8 in Kansas. 56.8 to 43.2 in OHIO, after they obfuscated the vote as much as possible to go the republicans way. you're the one talking polls, i'm talking votes. abortion is a MASSIVE loser for republicans even in red states. please let them be dumb enough to bring it up in the 2024 cycle.
59.2 to 40.8 in Kansas. 56.8 to 43.2 in OHIO, after they obfuscated the vote as much as possible to go the republicans way. you're the one talking polls, i'm talking votes. abortion is a MASSIVE loser for republicans even in red states. please let them be dumb enough to bring it up in the 2024 cycle.
ye maybe you forgot the content of the referendum for Kansas, it went 40% in favour of no right to abortion even in case of rape or incest wtf.
I said the people agreeing with that are 10-15% nationwide, everyone knows that.
so 40% in Kansas means an absolute majority of primary republican voters there want a complete ban no exception, which is why saying 12 weeks can be ok would already be incredible for a republican candidate in Kansas.
now, do you think there are 25, states where the absolute majority of voters are in favor of 24 weeks no question asked abortion? really? because that would be roe
59.2 to 40.8 in Kansas. 56.8 to 43.2 in OHIO, after they obfuscated the vote as much as possible to go the republicans way. you're the one talking polls, i'm talking votes. abortion is a MASSIVE loser for republicans even in red states. please let them be dumb enough to bring it up in the 2024 cycle.
Do you think we can run reverse psychology on these guys and get them to campaign on banning abortion?
ye maybe you forgot the content of the referendum for Kansas, it went 40% in favour of no right to abortion even in case of rape or incest wtf.
I said the people agreeing with that are 10-15% nationwide, everyone knows that.
so 40% in Kansas means an absolute majority of primary republican voters there want a complete ban no exception, which is why saying 12 weeks can be ok would already be incredible for a republican candidate in Kansas.
now, do you think there are 25, states where the absolute ma
the kansas referendum that i cited was going to add this:
§ 22. Regulation of abortion. Because Kansans value both women and children, the constitution of the state of Kansas does not require government funding of abortion and does not create or secure a right to abortion. To the extent permitted by the constitution of the United States, the people, through their elected state representatives and state senators, may pass laws regarding abortion, including, but not limited to, laws that account for circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or circumstances of necessity to save the life of the mother.[22]
to their constitution. so 40% wanted to be able to make laws against abortion and 60% said the state constitution does/or should protect the right to abortion.
i think if abortion was front and center and the choice was anything less than the viability standard in roe, then yes i would predict the democrats would have a great cycle. that's one of the reasons the republicans say crazy batshit like post birth abortion because they are trying to distract from the fact that basically no abortions occur after viability anyway.
we might get to test our theories Luciom..
Florida enacting a 6 week ban and there is a "viability" amendment on the ballot for November.
we might get to test our theories Luciom..
Florida enacting a 6 week ban and there is a "viability" amendment on the ballot for November.
My theory would be tested if the law allowed for 12-15 weeks and the referendum was for 24.
At it is, it's quite plausible, almost certain I'd say a majority will prefer viability to 6 weeks.
But being Florida they need 60% of the votes to pass it so I don't know if it will pass
plot twist marks a win for abortion rights in Indiana
an extraordinary April 4 appellate court decision in Indiana
The unanimous ruling from the three-judge panel, which found that the state’s
abortion ban burdens the religious beliefs of those whose faiths permit abortions
plaintiffs argued that their religious doctrine teaches that a fetus
is part of a woman’s body, not an independent being with its own rights.
The abortion ban, then, violates their religious freedom to decide whether to have an abortion
