LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

At the moment 465 squat 575 DL.

Don't need bench to go over 1000 lbs haha.

Why is mostly losing and having weak teams regardless of cast considered better than mostly winning titles and having dominant teams??

Why is 1/4 with AD or Love and 2/4 with Wade considered better than 6/6 with Pippen?

I don't understand Lebron's goat case at all

He failed drastically in 2010 so he started teaming up with opposing franchise players thereafter....... And still mostly got destroyed after doing this.

How is this anywhere near GOAT?.. How does having more bad losses than anyone in history qualify someone for GOAT?... How is the biggest loser in NBA history in the goat conversation??

Because all of your narratives are demonstrably false.

By your own criteria Jordan is 6/10 with with Pippen not 6/6.

By definition, 6/10 is winning the majority of the years, aka "mostly" winning

Furthermore, there's a stretch of 6 rings in 7 years, which would constitute "mostly winning" as well and it would fit this definition better than anyone in the modern era.

So Jordan was "mostly winning" with Pippen (either 6/10 or 6/7), while Lebron is mostly losing with AD, Love or Wade (1/4 or 2/4 w/ Allen's save)

Why isn't it completely viable to say that Lebron had an organic juggernaut in Year 7 with a 1-time all-star just like Giannis, Jokic, Curry and MJ did, and the only difference is that Lebron gave up and started teaming up with opposing franchise players thereafter instead of sticking it out like his peers.. Since he became a talent-based winner that always used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic.... why isn't this completely viable based on the historical record of Lebron and peers of similar caliber?.. And it fits with the eye-test - Lebron has bad fits and weak chemistry all the time (bron-ball, a version of luka-ball).

Except you didn't demonstrate them to be false, in part because their statistical fact - MJ mostly won with Pippen whether we say 6 of 10 years or the 6 in 7 year stretch, while Lebron mostly loses regardless of cast... this isn't a "narrative" - it's the historical and statistical record.

6/10 is obviously extremely good, but when you have a history of biases and cherry-picking, your inaccuracies must be pointed out.

Jordan won at twice the rate of Lebron (40% vs 20%) but more importantly, he had stretches where he mostly won titles and had unbeatable teams, while Lebron never did with any cast.

So Lebron is praised for mostly losing and being extremely beatable with every cast that he ever had, and this is considered better than Jordan mostly winning and being unbeatable with just Pippen. iI's looney tunes.

Lebron lost many times in his prime and in every way - upset losses, sweep losses, numerous losses with 2 all-star teammates, record losses... worst-ever Finals records.. lottery in his prime.... many losses with preseason favorites and 1 or 2 seeds... he's simply the biggest loser of all-time
.

So again, why isn't it completely viable to say that Lebron had an organic juggernaut in Year 7 with a 1-time all-star just like Giannis, Jokic, Curry and MJ did, and the only difference is that Lebron gave up and started teaming up with opposing franchise players thereafter instead of sticking it out like his peers.. Since he became a talent-based winner that always used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic....

why isn't this completely viable based on the historical record of Lebron and peers of similar caliber?.. And it fits with the eye-test - Lebron has bad fits and weak chemistry all the time (bron-ball, a version of luka-ball).

Btw, is Antawn Jamison a better player all-time than Jamal Murray by virtue of 20k points and 2 all-star teams to 0 for Murray?... Lebron had both Jamison and Mo in 2010, plus a bevy of good role players and top defense.. This is the kind of organic juggernaut that all-timers produce by Year 7 - we saw this with Jokic, Curry, Giannis, Mj and Lebron - they all produced organic juggernauts with "normal" casts by Year 7.. The only difference is that Lebron gave up and sought more talent by teaming up with opponents.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

4 time finals MVP being the "biggest loser of all-time" is another one of your delusional takes.

If LeBron is the biggest loser of all-time what does that make Charles Barkley or Karl Malone, who never won? Or Kevin Garnett who won 1 title when he was past his prime?

There isn't much between Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett apart from their draft luck.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Jamison as some sort of "great help" that LeBron failed to win with.

Jamison was an inefficient chucker (like Wizards Jordan) except he was kinda like that for his whole career. He's the worst NBA player among players with 20K points.

When LeBron left Cleveland Jamison led the team to a 19-63 record the year after.

Yeah amazing player...

I think the bits TWOG can't comprehend are something like:

- how difficult it is to make a Finals 9 times out of a decade, how insanely dominant your play allied to how consistent your mental and physical capability must be to achieve that;
- how much better the Golden State Warriors and Spurs were than the teams MJ faced in the finals;
- how much less consistency LeBron had around him during that stretch. 3 different Orgs, 3 different coaches, 3 very different supporting casts;
- how 2016 was the goat series where he led the only finals comeback from 1 - 3 while leading all players from both teams in all of points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks and owning the most clutch defensive moment in NBA history, the Block;
- how much better LeBron's overall career has been when compared to MJ, 20 consecutive All NBA and breaking a record once thought unbreakable while being top 5 all time in assists;
- how LeBron has straddled two very different eras of basketball, from beating the ultra physical Pistons during the nadir of the low scoring 00s to beating the 73 win 3 point raining Warriors to maintaining All NBA level through his entire 30's in a completely different offensive landscape to the league he entered;
- how LeBron is the more versatile player and athlete, having played all 5 positions for at least a full season;

We know how great Jordan's run with the Bulls was, but we also can see that the Org put the right pieces around him and he had the GOAT coach throughout that entire stretch. Jordan's cultural impact was unrivalled, his scoring "bag" the greatest ever and he owns iconic "clutch" moments like the Shot. But he quit twice during his window and couldn't make it happen with a second Organisation even while having full control as GM for a period before he suited up again.

Jordan and LeBron stand alone, the group of posters consistently on here just look at the body of work LeBron continues to put up and we see him as slightly ahead.

The LeBron side of the argument have their extremists, who want to ignore missteps like the Decision or deny that he choked in 2011. But the MJ side is built on a platform of nostalgia, a feeling that the 1990s was basketball perfection just because that was "their" era; and everything to come after must be inferior.

https://youtu.be/-zd62MxKXp8?si=7jBwqmPc...

The issue with the debate, in the end, is that old timers insist that LeBron be viewed through the narrow prism of MJ's career. 'He changed teams', 'he doesn't always take the last shot', 'his personality is different to MJ', etc. LeBron is not Michael Jordan. Jordan could never lead both teams in a finals series in points / assists / rebounds / blocks / steals. Jordan could never average a triple double across a finals series. Jordan didn't have the most iconic play of his career be a defensive play. And Jordan couldn't win somewhere else, even with full control.

I see a lot of people not get over the first hurdle: that it's even possible that Jordan isn't the best and / or that the 90's wasn't the greatest era of the game.

roaring applause!

Yeah that's the point - Jamison wasn't that great so he fits right in with Klay, Murray, Middleton and Pippen - these guys were the caliber of cast used by Curry, Jokic, Giannis and MJ to achieve organic juggernauts/league favorites by Year 7.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but he gave up and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

Bron is a basketball prophet; he knew how to win as a teen.

He was drafted and remained on a team with a trash roster. If he ended up on a team like Magic or Bird he's champing as a rook and has more than six atm.

Your whole paradigm is Jordan, there's more to basketball than The Passion of the Mike. Many paths to basketball nirvana, not just his route.

Jordan had the goat steal on Karl Malone right before he hit the game-winner over Russell - so the only reason the goat steal wasn't Jordan's best play was because he actually had game-winners on the championship level, while Lebron doesn't... if Lebron had game-winners on the Finals level, those winners would push down the defensive plays just like Jordan's goat steal was pushed down... (btw that steal had everything including Karl crashing to the ground).

The idea that despite Jordan being unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star in Pippen, he somehow couldn't win elsewhere with the many rich man's Pippen's that everyone else enjoyed is just a horrible false argument - you're using against Jordan the fact that he was good enough to win with the first all-star he ever received and never needed another one..

Again, that's a horrible, false argument..

Otoh, the reality that we know to be fact is that Lebron is extremely beatable regardless of cast by virtue of never having a cast that he mostly won titles with for any stretch - he isn't capable of having a team that mostly wins regardless of cast.. 21 years confirms that he can't 3-peat or have dynasty or win 70 with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ (and others)

None of the arguments used for MJ could be argued that they were actually bad things that caused loss, thereby nullifying the argument entirely.. This is because all of MJ's arguments are tied to his winning.. The stuff he did in losses normally isn't praised... The only exception might be the 63-point game where he was forced to carry the verifiably worst playoff cast ever (30-win team) to double OT against the goat opponent.

Accordingly, anything that doesn't yield a win is irrelevant or even bad, such as a triple-double that yielded the biggest loss of all-time (record loss).. Lebron's triple-double in the 17' Finals required record hold-time (ball-dominance) that yielded record deficit in team assists and record loss..

Any record loss that occurs with 2 all-star teammates and a sidekick that already outplayed the opponents' sidekick in the prior year qualifies as goat underachievement.. It's just a horrible thing to use as a primary argument for goat

This was one of your primary arguments and it's complete dogshit on it's face, not to mention that MJ (or anyone) could get a couple more rebounds to achieve a triple double in the Finals so they could lose by record amount..

Jordan could've averaged less than 41 ppg in the 93' Finals so that he could get 1 more rebound and 4 more assists but then the Bulls would've lost - Pippen couldn't handle more load at 46% true-shooting while both the Bulls/Suns averaged exactly 106.7 and 113.0 ortg, so all of Jordan's points were needed.

It's insanely easy to win a conference if you take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team (the "decision") - only then did the Finals streak begin, otherwise he was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd.. And Lebron teamed up with the next-best player or producer in the league - Wade was #2 across the board in 2010 so that's like Magic teaming up with Bird.

It's like you think people will forget about what actually happened and believe your delusion instead. It's amazing in an age of google

The 15' Warriors were 1st-timers that barely beat an injured Cavs team, while the 98' Jazz were a long-standing organic juggernaut that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan/Robinson...

So there is no chance the pre-KD warriors were as good as the Jazz - we already know that the Jazz 2nd and 3rd options (Stockton &: Hornacek) have FAR HIGHER production rates across the board than Klay (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, efficiency), while also having a superior frontcourt.

And the 14' Spurs only won 58 games.... People don't realize that Jordan's Finals opponents were all juggernauts and freight trains such as the 93' Suns - but they simply didn't look that formidable once it was time to face the Bulls.. The Heat should've dimmed the Spurs' star by being 60-70 win juggernaut but Lebron-ball isn't capable of unbeatable teams or reams that mostly win titles, or perennial favorite on the Finals level... it's just too crappy a brand and chemistry to achieve such a goat caliber of basketball that Jordan achieved.

And he was extremely beatable with every cast.. he never had a stretch where he mostly won with any cast.

He always had underwhelming teams, weak records and perennial underdog on the Finals level (low team ceiling) with EVERY CAST

Accordingly, 21 years confirms that he isn't capable of 3-peat, unbeatable teams, dynasty or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ

Btw, Lebron got to refresh old casts every 4:years with the best young studs in the league, so he never deals with aging casts and stars like MJ did.

How was he down 1-3 against a tired team???? .... KD being up 3-1 with Westbrick against a fresh team is more impressive ..

Obviously KD still lost because no one wins with Westbrick - but KD did better with Westbrick than anyone else and far better than Lebron, which is a major argument for KD > Lebron.

Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get 3-1 deficit and needed his sidekick to outplay the league MVP to win series... show me where Pippen went to the 93' Finals and outplayed Barkley or Malone...

Ultimately, Lebron needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).

^^^ complete bs that you're making up

Lebron entered the league and was immediately lottery for 2 years despite having all-star teammate.

So he didn't know how to win anything and needed all-star teammate to win 40 games.

He waited 3 years to develop favored high seed before entering 06' Playoffs - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach, top defenses and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition to make the 06' Playoffs.

You say that Lebron had bad teams but his first playoff teams were 3rd-year team and favored high seeds, which can't be compared to Year 1 eight seeds that Jordan had as a rookie... Jordan didn't get 3 years before entering his 1st playoffs...

Btw, 05' Hughes was far better than 90' Pippen across the board and Lebron had the East all-star center too, so MJ would easily 3-peat with that.. But Lebron averaged 22 on 36% vs Spurs, so that's a black mark compared to 22-year Amare vs 05' Spurs (37 on 55%), or 20-year Magic winning FMVP, or 23-year Jordan setting PO scoring record vs goat team... 23-year Lebron was locked up vs 08 Celts too - 26 on 35%

So you just don't know the history

The steal on Malone was nice, but it was a game 6 and there are levels to these things: LeBron crashing down the full length of the court to perfectly time The Block is what it is.

Unfortunately we have to deal in the reality of what happened. And what happened is Mike went to Washington, was the GM for two seasons and then added himself on a minimum with a coach of his choosing. And he couldn't get it done. It's a shame he didn't play on in 99, but he didn't. LeBron did go three different places and title each time, these are the facts.

I mean lol man, there's an edge to the difference of these things that can be explained by variance and context. LeBron and Miami went to 4 straight Finals, then LeBron and the Cavs went to 4 straight. They should have won in 2011 if LeBron had met the moment; but from there it's pretty simple:

- The Spurs played beautiful basketball in 2014, and Wade and Bosh were coming to the end;
- Kyrie and Love were injured in 2015;
- Durant had joined the Warriors after 2016, making them unbeatable

"Extremely beatable", lol. Again, this is the "Passion of the Mike" nonsense, as Dodger coined above beautifully. Turns out the context of basketball was completely different 20 years later.

I dunno man, LeBron playing out of his mind against literally the greatest team ever assembled is pretty relevant. Again, you clearly can't comprehend or don't understand for some reason how good that Warriors team was. Beyond transforming how the game is played, they just had so much sheer talent on the floor. The 2017 series was remarkable for it being 'one of them will get ya in the end' every night. The showtime Lakers, the 72 win Bulls, the 2014 Spurs - all great teams. But that 2017 Warriors team stands alone imo (and I'd say there are lots and lots out there who agree with me!).

Jordan could have averaged triple doubles, he could have played numerous positions, he could have won elsewhere in 99, he could have broken Kareem's scoring record...except he didn't do any of those things. It's not MJ's fault he didn't do things, he didn't have to. But that's the nature of human progress, someone will always come along and do it better.

I mean Wemby is entering the league as LeBron leaves it, and there's every chance he has the goatest peak based on his rookie season. And eventually - even if I don't live to see it - someone will eventually come along and put together a better cumulative career than LeBron.

This is how humanity has always worked - things evolve and in the vast majority of cases they improve. You want to believe it will always be Jordan, or that if it the player isn't just like Mike or the era isn't just like the 90's it can't be better. You are just an old man, and you are wrong. Like all the old men before you.

Lovely way of phrasing it imo

If Lebron had game-winners on the Finals level, those winners would push down the defensive plays just like Jordan's goat steal was pushed down.

So again, Jordan had far better plays by having goat plays on both ends of the floor

The facts are that 1/4 with AD is a joke and nowhere near GOAT caliber

The facts are that 1/4 with Love is a joke and nowhere near GOAT caliber

The facts are that 2/4 with Wade is the biggest joke of all and nowhere near GOAT caliber

Otoh, Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star, which is why he's goat

And no one cares what MJ did at 40 without AD or every GM in the league stacking his team.. there's NO WAY that Jordan would be the 9 seed with this stacked Lakers team

You're saying that Lebron teamed up with the next-best player in the league and made 4 straight Finals?

You think that's goat-caliber?

It would only be goat-caliber if he won all 4, but instead he was 2/4 including goat choke and record loss..

That's the worst anyone could do

Jordan won with old Pippen shooting worse than anyone ever has (literally), so why can't Lebron win with old Wade and prime Bosh?

So that's no excuse at all - your inability to provide a real reason for the record defeat confirms that Lebron is simply inferior - that's why he failed to 3-peat and MJ succeeded..

Lebron wasn't good enough to fit with Bosh and get the most out of him, while also being unable to average 41 like M - Lebron failed to 3-peat and lost by 13 ppg because he averaged 13 less than MJ's 3-peat in 93' (28 to 41 ppg).

Definition of "extremely beatable regardless of cast":

2007- swept & locked up

2008- locked up

2009 - upset loss to 1-star team

2010 - upset loss meltdown

2011 - upset loss meltdown

2014 - record loss

2017 - record loss

2018 - record loss (swept)

2019 - lottery in prime

2021 - 1st Round loss

2022 - missed play-in with 2 top 75 teammate (goat underachievement)

2023 - swept again

^^^ extremely beatable regardless of cast

Worst championship record regardless of cast

Perennial underdog on Finals level regardless of cast

Never a stretch of mostly winning titles - mostly loses regardless of cast

Many guys played better against goat teams...

Jordan averaged 44/6/6 vs goat team in 86'

He lost by similar amount as the 17 Cavs despite carrying the worst playoff cast ever, while Lebron had 2 all-star teammates and defending champion cast

Again, luka-balling your way to record loss isn't impressive

If KD made the Warriors that good then that's why he adds more title equity than Bron and is therefore superior - KD can have unbeatable teams that cannot lose Finals, while Lebron has the worst losing Finals records regardless of cast...

If one guy yields perennial Finals loser and the other yields perennial winners on the championship level, then it's clear who provides more title equity in the long run... You can add KD to a team and be unbeatable (run off a bunch of titles), but you can't with Bron and Bron-ball.

It wasn't just the KD Warriors - Lebron has lottery records against the Spurs, Nuggets, Magic or Mavs - they all destroyed Lebron in his prime..

And cut the crap about the 14' Spurs - they only won 58 games and the odds were even heading into the series, yet record loss occurred... Lebron and Wade were mad at Duncan for predicting victory.

Weak fits with many players confurns that Lebron never played 5 positions.. He's only played a point guard role for his entire career and could never score 36k points as the roll man like Karl Malone for example.. Lebron can only play a point guard role and it's hindered chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, so he can't win as much.

And Lebron never dominated like Jordan based on production rate or winning.. He never won dpoy or was scoring champ and 1st team defense.. Lebron never had this caliber of 2-way dominance..

And Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load like MJ meant that he needed more star help - needing more help makes him inferior, especially when he mostly loses with every cast.

So you're completely delusional I'm thinking Lebron has done it better by dominating less, stat-padding via luka-balling but still having lower production rates than MJ, and of course needing more help but still losing much more and more than anyone ever has.. it's looney tunes

No one has more bad losses than Lebron such as sweep losses, upset losses, record losses, getting locked up in loss, or worst-ever championship record.. or losing with preseason favorites, or with multiple all-star teammates, or with 1 or 2 seeds..

So Lebron is the biggest loser in history - he had a bad career but it's misreported on as good... he barely won a few titles by stacking the deck and still managed to be the biggest loser ever, aka more bad losses than anyone ever... Mostly losing regardless of cast

“LeBron is the biggest loser in history”

TWOG, ladies and gentlemen.

In the history of 3-pointer basketball, name someone with more bad losses such as upset losses, sweep losses, record losses, locked up in a loss, losing with 2 all-star teammates or a worst-ever championship record.

I'll wait

How can the player with more bad losses than anyone in history to many different opponents and the worst championship record in modern history be considered a "winner"???

Dodger just said that Lebron knew how to win as a teenager except he lost as the massive favorite in HS and then lost with literally the biggest talent edge to ever lose in 04' Olympics and 06' World Games, which bookended 2 lotteries despite having all-star teammate in 04/05.

So the biggest weakness of Lebron's game (winning capability) is lied about by Lebron fans by literally PRETENDING he's a winner despite having the biggest losing record ever.. It's amazing the delusion that people are willing to grasp so they can say they saw the best ever.

There's no such delusion with Jordan because we can point to goat dominance and goat winning to support our goat claim... meanwhile, lebron fans must pretend that the goat losing record is actually a goat winning one.. it's an amazing fraud perpetrated on the public
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If Jokic teamed up with AD and went 1/4, no one would say that's goat

or if he went 2/4 with Curry, or 1/4 with Love...

It sounds absurd even saying "if Jokic teamed up with xxx"... how could someone that stacks the deck by teaming up with opposing franchise players be considered goat, even without considering that he mostly loses after stacking the deck.. it's absurd

Mostly losing after stacking the deck isn't anywhere near a goat career or goat caliber basketball

So everyone is just LYING about lebron.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history - a bum that mostly loses regardless of cast

You think Pippen is a replaceable piece, and that the rest of the Bulls roster was garbage and then assume that any roster with 1 good player is guaranteed title

You use trash like Hughes, Jamison often, think 2014 Wade/Bosh were top 10 guys, think Kevin Love is a star, that coaching doesn't matter, etc