LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Thread Cliffs:

I love this thread so much.

ORLY???

This is what you said about Curry not too long ago:

From most overrated player in history to ORGANIC WINNER. I need 72off to comment on this insanity!

MJ, Curry, and Kobe would have 70-win team with this Laker team, yet Pierce is saying Lebron is goat if he wins this year?

This is why I don't watch today's NBA.

Curry won with Wiggins so what would he do with many teammates that are better than Wiggins like AD, D-lo, Reeves and many more?.. How is Pierce falling for the fraud of allowing Lebron to have bad regular season records and underdog status with the most stacked roster in the league?... MJ would never lose with this team

It's amazing how results oriented people are that they think 6 rings means that Kerr, Paxson and Horace is a better cast than this Laker team - the reality is that Wood or Dinwiddie would be the 4th best player on either 3-peat team but they're like 10th best and buried on this stacked, manufactured Laker roster..

It's completed bs to say Lebron is goat for being 9 seed underdog with this roster and lottery out West without AD.. Then if he gets carried to the title by having numerous teammates match his scoring, this shared load will be called goat even though MJ always carried the load

Lebron has bad records and underdog teams with rosters that MJ or Curry would have all-time records and dominant favorites with

And when Lebron mostly loses the title with these underdog teams but of course wins once in a rare while like every underdog eventually does, this is considered better than MJ or Curry winning 70 games and having dominant favorites that win every year..

it's complete looney tunes and it shows exactly how fans are being defrauded by Lebron and Klutch Sports.. It isn't better to have bad records and underdog status that rarely wins, than it is to have great records and dominant teams that usually win.. People have it backwards and give credit to the rare upset more than consistent winning... It's like lauding a bad team when they eventually win one and then saying this is better than having a team that always wins.

Baby goes 'wah, wah!'

LEBRON RUINED THE GAME!! :(:(:(

No you don't understand bball 101 because you don't understand WHAT MAKES a great team game.

It isn't 1 guy dominating the ball and turning everyone into spot up shooter..

This is confirmed by 21 years of the lowest title frequency, numerous horrible fits, zero #1 offenses, zero young player development, and the worst championship record in modern history.

So you have it backwards - you think that one guy holding the ball is a "team game" but it's the opposite.. Ball movement is a team game but this requires superior skill such as expert jumpshooting, great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) and superior passing to find open teammates or trick defenses without dominating the ball.

Lebron can't do any of this higher-level stuff that yields great chemistry, #1 offenses and better teams with less help.. Instead, his luka-ball style yields bad chemistry and teammates playing below capacity, along with zero young player development and weaker team offenses.. This is statistical fact.. It's amazing that people claim lebron plays a team game in light of his many bad fits, teammates cratering alongside him and inferior team offenses to MJ, Curry and others

Curry proving me wrong is literally why he's in my top 5... Otoh, Lebron has never proven me wrong on a single thing I've ever said about him, so he remains outside my top 10

Btw, it's quite simple - Curry and KD can be added to teams and eventually they'll land on a team where they will make the team unbeatable and run off many titles - this higher team ceiling that they can provide (running off many titles and having unbeatable team) gives them more long-run title equity than Lebron, who isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast.. he'll never run off a bunch of titles with any roster, while KD will, so KD has better title equity, aka he's better

So you're a Lebron hater.

/s

Why does anyone care about this? I mean if you want to try and say a guy that can literally do everything on the court, and has done it at a higher level, for longer than anyone is basketball history, can't turn ok rosters into champions, ok... great. Opinion noted.

I don't do the tocks of ticks... but my teenage son has been saying that there are videos talking about how MJ would just be an average player in today's NBA. That what he was doing, nearly all NBA players are doing today.

Needless to say I slapped the sht out of him... kidding. But, wth is up with this generation and denigrating everything about previous generations. Even MJ is under attack?

These generational battles need to stop, they aren't good for anyone, and it's just another way to keep people divided.

I reckon Jordan today would translate similar to Kobe Bryant. A top 5 player in the league, but not the clear best of his era like he was.

I always find it funny when people think Kobe is anywhere near a GOAT discussion. He was barely ever even considered the best player when he was playing. 1 MVP, and 1 runner up. Compare that to the real GOAT types like LeBron 4 MVPs, and 4 runner ups, and Jordan, 5 MVPs, and 3 runner ups. It's laughable how somehow Kobe got in that discussion for so many people now.

You can't watch Edwards and SGA and not see how MJ would be dominate in today's game.

Kobe obviously not in GOAT conversation. Probably around 15 on the list.

Yeah I think MJ would be a top player in the modern game for sure. I also would expect him to adapt to taking way more 3s.

The fact that there's this huge league-wide and media push to get Lebron a 5th ring proves that winning matters and everything I said about a player producing high team ceilings matters.. If they get lebron a 5th ring, all of a sudden being a winner and ring count will matter again.. So again, team ceiling matters and a guy that can produce unbeatable teams provides more title equity than a player that cannot produce unbeatable teams and mostly loses every year regardless of cast..

People are just lying about the title equity Lebron provides - he mostly loses regardless of cast and isn't capable of having stretches where a cast of his mostly wins.. A player that produces teams that mostly lose the title provides less title equity than someone that can produce unbeatable teams that have stretches of mostly winning every year

You realize all of your arguments can just be used against you and then it's obviously Bill Russell? Do you know how silly you'd sound to an even older head when you come to your conclusions it's The Mike?

Like MJ can't hold a candle to Russell when it comes to all the **** you talk bout.

I'll tell you exactly what he'll say to that.

Bill Russell was carried by all the scoring help he had.

Sort by ppg. Ignore that Bill Russell is the best defender of all-time and the best player on the Celtics.

‘Huge league wide league and media push to get LeBron a 5th ring’

TWOG should really submit invoices to clutch for rent, given LeBron lives in his head. What a weird conspiracy, particularly in a year where the Lakers are going to likely end up a 9th seed on ~46 wins.

LeBron James is the bogeyman to TWOG.

Probably something about only 8 teams, even though the nba went from 23 to 29 in the decade of Jordan's prime but obviously the league talent is lower now than during the expansion era

^^^^ there that's it - that's disqualifying - that's what you guys don't understand

At no point from Jordan's sophomore year of college through his Wizards years, would he ever have a low seed with this Lakers roster.

The fact that Lebron had low seed with David Robinson as teammate is disqualifying and we already know that Lebron was lottery with AD already, while also losing in 1st Round and being swept 4-0 by a 1-star organic team.

All of this is disqualifying because MJ could never be low seed, lottery, or 1st Round loser with a rich man's Pippen, aka Robinson/AD - the #4 all-time PER as a teammate.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg... Winning 53 games in 2017 with 2 all-star teammates is disqualifying because instead of the Finals being a clash of titans like that the 80's Lakers/Celtics, it was considered a big mismatch and big underdog status for the Cavs.. Again, MJ would never win 53 games with 2 franchise players and all-stars as teammates.. The Cavs would win 65-75 games so the Finals was the clash of titans it should've been.

Missing the 05' Playoffs with the East all-star center is disqualifying... 22 on 36% vs Spurs is disqualifying...... 7 TO in 4th quarter of critical playoff game to get upset by 1-star team is disqualifying..... Losing by record amount despite even odds entering the series and 2 all-star teammates is disqualifying...

Ultimately, there are many seasons of Lebron's where MJ would've done better, but zero seasons of MJ's where Lebron could've done better with the same cast - remember that Lebron needed an all-star teammate to win 40 games in 05' and added a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender to win 50 and make 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, MJ needed no cast or coaching to win 40, 50 or make Playoffs.. Also keep in mind that Lebron never won a series vs a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams in 2 decades.
.

Offense matters, otherwise you're just a defender - Russell has like 5 Bruce Bowen rings as 5th and 6th option

Regardless, in the history of post-civil rights, post-merger and 3-pointer basketball, Jordan had twice as many rings as the best player as anyone else... (it can easily be argued that a Duncan and Lebron were only the best player for 3 of their rings)

Btw, the "just a defender" argument is the obvious counter to people that say Pippen's scoring didn't matter - it DID matter because he was the 2nd scoring option, so if he's "just a defender", then he's derelict of duty and forces MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)...

Unfortunately, that's exactly what MJ was forced to do (carry scoring load) for the playoffs and Finals of 6 titles, which otherwise has only been done rarely in one-off fashion.. In addition to carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention), Jordan led Pippen is APG for their regular season career, playoff career and Finals career, while also getting more DPOY votes every year (except 96/97).

I guess some here just focus on rim protection being true value while perimeter defence is worth almost 0 .
That is why so much praise on Russel and so much dubious view on MJ defense.

Rim protection is a primary driver of good defense but so is culture of effort and long-standing chemistry, both of which are possible due to MJ's mentality that promotes effort and style of play that allows chemistry to develop.

The 2023 Nuggets had these things (culture of effort and long-standing chemistry), which allowed them to lock down the Heat in the Finals despite not having any good defenders.

Similarly, the 90's Bulls got better each time they lost their best defender in 94' (lost MJ), 95' (lost Horace), 98' (lost Pip for 1st half of yr) - each time the Bulls had better defenses after losing a great defender.. This is because they still had culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.

Accordingly, any team with MJ will develop great defense because he promotes culture of effort and long-standing chemistry.. Even the 2002 Wizards that completely turned around defensively with MJ before the his injury.. Laettner recently said the most amazing thing about MJ was how much effort he put into the defensive end of the floor.. That rubs off on teammates and what a contrast to LeMatador's defense

Regardless, MJ carrying the offense more than anyone ever has, while also having the attributes that help develop a great team defense puts him over Russell.. Unlike Lebron and MJ who played against many of the same players, MJ and Russell never played against any of the same guys - the 50's & 60's were truly the beginning and "pre-historic times" of the NBA

What did I say?

Sort by ppg, the extent of TWOG's analysis.

Even if you count them as Bruce Bowen rings he has 6 more of them, but one of the dumbest takes from him.

Russell isn't a POS degenerate like MJ, it took a mastermind like Jackson to keep a roster together, he'd be a Kyrie with modern media attention and random coaches