Covid-19 Discussion
Has the wisdom and courage to realize that the cure has now become worse than the disease. It's time to open up. Stop moving the ball.
Hospital systems have not been overwhelmed.
Ventilators are not in shortage.
Treatments are being developed.
There is no cure or vaccine. This is not going away for four years.
The devastation of the cure:
Suicide rates picking up.
Massive economic devastation which causes depression, anxiety, obesity, again increase in suicide rates and directly impacts poorer economic areas.
Alcohol sales up 51%.
Domestic Abuse on the uprise
Child abuse on the uprise.
Hospitals that do not have COVID related issues are forced to lay off doctors and nurses as there are not enough patients to economically support it, meaning they won't have the staff to deal with COVID outbreaks.
Michael Avenatti gets released from prison
We all did our part. We sheltered (here in Pennsylvania for 5 weeks already).
Open the office buildings. Open the hair saloons. Get rid of stupid mask laws.
Continue to monitor outbreaks and in areas hospital systems become threatened, reenact tougher guidelines.
LET'S GET BACK TO WORK!
And stop shaming people that want common sense solutions. Waiting for a vaccine is stupid and unpractical.
It was possible to avoid gettign covid before the vaccine was available. I did it, so did many other other people
In fact, most people avoided it before the vaccine was available. In the US, there were only 14 million cases at the start of December 2020, which is less than 5% of the population. Had people just carried on without any mitigations at all, then sure, nearly all or almost all of the population would've been infected by then. It's almost like staying home has an effect.
It was possible to avoid gettign covid before the vaccine was available. I did it, so did many other other people
One big uncertainty was when a vaccine would emerge. Under the assumption it would (which was a fair bet) then avoiding getting covid was a great idea.
Unless you tested every week (and even in that case it's not certain) you don't know if you actually avoided sarscov2 entirely.
It's very hard to claim you have never been exposed to the virus until vaccination became available because the vast majority of exposures have no effect on you.
Btw the assumption about a fairly efficacious vaccine coming that quick would have been a wrong one, given we never had one quicker than in 4 years in world history (afaik), and the median time was more like 8-10.
And we had never vaccinated against coronaviridae for humans in world history before.
Oh ant btw, that still doesn't answer any question about lockdown efficacy.
You are in the UK iirc, do you realize that even if you believe lockdowns saved a lot of lives, they still killed many more because of disruptions to the NHS? how do you account for the unprecedented spike in mental illness caused by lockdowns? or that part of health disappears from computations and you only measure lockdowns for their purported efficacy vs covid? even if they affected health negatively in a thousands ways?
That wasn't the claim.
Btw the assumption about a fairly efficacious vaccine coming that quick would have been a wrong one, given we never had one quicker than in 4 years in world history (afaik), and the median time was more like 8-10.
No. 1) the vaccines were almost immediately ready. March 17th was the first date of the first Moderna trial. 2) These vaccines had been in development for over a decade for SARS/MERS. The tech was merely pivoted to SARS-Cov2. 3) During a pandemic, trials go by MUCH faster since you don't have to wait very long to get the required number of exposures.
Anyone paying attention knew the vaccines were moving very quickly.
Again, a vaccine for SARS had been in development for over a decade at that point.
Because there are none. Literally no one with sense has ever questioned that separating people slows the spread of viruses.
Are you going to try to answer my questions about polio, or should I just give you the answers?
Unless you tested every week (and even in that case it's not certain) you don't know if you actually avoided sarscov2 entirely.
It's very hard to claim you have never been exposed to the virus until vaccination became available because the vast majority of exposures have no effect on you.
Btw the assumption about a fairly efficacious vaccine coming that quick would have been a wrong one, given we never had one quicker than in 4 years in world history (afaik), and the median time was more like 8-10
The disruption to the NHS was caused by the pandemic. The lockdown helped very significantly which was in part udone when they relaxed it too early. Being better prepared would have made a massive difference but it was too late for that.
It's true that we can't be certain we didn't get covid pre-vaccine. No symptoms and avoiding exposure make it very likely though. Those I know who took less precautions (either willingly or because of circumstances) all got covid pre vaccine - at least I can't think of any who didn't
The disruption to the NHS was caused by the pandemic. The lockdown helped very significantly which was in part udone when they relaxed it too early. Being better prepared would have made a massive difference but it was too late for that.
It's true that we can't be certain we didn't get covid pre-vaccine. No symptoms and avoiding exposure make it very likely though. Those I know who took less precautions (either willingly or because of circumstances) all got covid pre vaccine - at least I can't t
No this is a lie that politicians peddled a lot to justify the lockdowns. If lockdowns delayed cases , then they prolonged the pandemic!
if you let everything open, everyone catches the virus, everyone who has to die from it does die quickly, then you are back at full efficiency NHS fairly soon.
Which btw is why sweden had no disruptions to health services after may 2020 to be clear, it's not like we are discussing hypotheticals.
Instead of 2+ years of vastly reduced efficacy of the NHS for the totality of all other health need, CAUSED by the delay in cases of lockdowns.
That does'nt hold water.
It's possible that with no chance of a vaccine it could make a sort of sense but even then a large part of the aim of the lockdown was to avoid maximal cases in the winter.
(btw I had and have no interest at all in what the politicians said)
No this is a lie that politicians peddled a lot to justify the lockdowns. If lockdowns delayed cases , then they prolonged the pandemic!
Oh lord. Your proposed solution to a deadly contagious virus is infect everyone at the same time while we have no immunity and no knowledge of how to treat it and limited resources to care for the ill?
if you let everything open, everyone catches the virus, everyone who has to die from it does die quickly, then you are back at full efficiency NHS fairly soon.
I responded to that first sentence without reading the next one. Please just stop talking about this subject. This is painful to read. I would say it's the dumbest, most offensive thing I've read in a long time, but I did read your holocaust comparisons earlier. Ironically, this would approach holocaust level disaster.
So since you are just ignoring me now, I'll fill you in. Here are the answers to all of my questions that you ignored because they expose your absolute lack of knowledge and horrific bias:
1) The more dangerous virus is the one with an R of 10 and a lethality of 1%. It will kill far more people. The first virus will not spread beyond a small outbreak.
2) The R of polio is 5-7 (definitely higher than 1)
3) Polio spreads through the same mechanisms as COVID-19
4) Less than 1% of all polio infections progress to acute paralytic polio, and 5-15% of those are lethal. So something like 0.02 to 0.06% lethality rate
5) No, the entire population did not become infected with polio.
6) Yes, there are many complications of polio infections beyond death.
So, no. None of what you said is correct. None at all.
I was mostly in favour of the mask mandates, since the downside was very small. I’m more concerned about the process of how policy was decided around lockdowns, and also the way governments were presenting information to the public.
I don’t consider myself qualified to make any claims about the actual effectiveness of lockdowns, although I’m happy enough to accept the majority view that they were overall a positive intervention.
No they weren't.
They had zero positive effects for anybody under 55 and healthy. Globally we wasted a few trillion dollars as a result with lockdowns for that population demographic.
Team lockdown can never explain why we couldn't just have locked down the olds and let everyone else burn through.
The default response today is "muh muh muh long covid" which is a complete absolute nothing burger amongst under 55 and healthy. You have people still arguing today that millions upon millions of sample sizes by mid April 2020 wasn't enough to know anything about covid. This denial of scientific evidence amongst team lockdown is due to the fact that they are incapable of admitting they are wrong.
Masks are just a red herring in this entire debate. Mask mandates were absolutely, provably useless in aggregate (when comparing # of infections in mask mandate states vs non mask mandate states). The only thing worth arguing about the entire mask mandate era was whether producing billions of face diapers was a good idea or not. In the grand scheme of things, nothing worth talking about seriously. The lockdowns is where all the damage was done.
Team lockdown can never explain why we couldn't just have locked down the olds and let everyone else burn through.
A lot of wrong in this post, but I'm just going to pull this little tidbit out. It's because the old people will still get it from the people that have to take care of them. The only way to stop it spreading is for everyone to reduce contact. Just some people is completely ineffective.
This also ignores that it would still kill a huge number of "non-olds," overwhelmed health care resources, and sped up mutations. On and on.
Rest assured the rest of the post is just as wrong as this, but someone else can deal with that if they want
I understand most people don't realize the magnitude of the event, because they feel like "well 70 days under house arrest, it's nothing like death".
Well it actually is. When we count traffic accidents value lost we compare that to minutes lost in traffic because of lower speed! Because when you multiply that for every car route every person does it becomes worth more than many individual lives.
House arresting 60m people for months is *big*.
It was historically unprecedented in world history for
People can't really comprehend the magnitude of lighting trillions of dollars on fire and getting ZERO in return for it.
What humanity could have done with those trillions...
A lot of wrong in this post, but I'm just going to pull this little tidbit out. It's because the old people will still get it from the people that have to take care of them. The only way to stop it spreading is for everyone to reduce contact. Just some people is completely ineffective.
This also ignores that it would still kill a huge number of "non-olds," overwhelmed health care resources, and sped up mutations. On and on.
Rest assured the rest of the post is just as wrong as this, but someone el
Lock down olds and put all caretakers in strict protocol and print money to alleviate their incomes. Does everything have to be spoon fed to you?
Huge number of non-olds, I count a little over 1000 in Canada for the entire pandemic for everyone under 50. "Huge numbers" of non olds is laughable.
JFC they keep getting dumber and dumber. It's truly something.
What makes me so happy today in 2024 is whenever I casually discuss covid with humans in public or private settings, the vast majority of them think lockdowns were stupid.
Being Pro lockdown is basically a minority opinion today.
Nature is healing.
Lock down olds and put all caretakers in strict protocol and print money to alleviate their incomes. Does everything have to be spoon fed to you?
So how do those caretakers live? Do they ever come in contact with others? Are they cut off from their families? How do they eat? This sounds worse than what was implemented for them. Maybe this will be their own personal Holocaust.
Huge number of non-olds, I count a little over 1000 in Canada for the entire pandemic for everyone under 50. "Huge numbers" of non olds is laughable.
Wait, did Canada have lockdowns? Wouldn't that be an example of how lockdowns helped? Why would you use statistics from a country that has lockdowns to show what wouldv'e happened without lockdowns? You feeling ok?
Oh god it's like a parade.
lololol
Incorrect, and ignores that multiple infections are more dangerous than a single one, and ignores mutation and improvements in treatment/prevention over time. Again, you don't even know what you don't know.
So what was your answer to the question I asked? I see you ignored it completely.
I didn't read the rest of your post because you 1) were factually wrong on your very first point, and 2) ignored my question.
Exactly .
Luciom is so knowledgeable that the spike with covid in 2021 due to mutation was already in the data by March 2020 and they knew 1 year in advance that mutation was going to be less deadly then the original covid 19 strain , even tho it was more contagious .
What a bunch of garbage nonsense but unsurprising….
Yes Luciom has a timeline problem in regard to C19. All his C19 posts should have an asterisk added.
What makes me so happy today in 2024 is whenever I casually discuss covid with humans in public or private settings, the vast majority of them think lockdowns were stupid.
Being Pro lockdown is basically a minority opinion today.
Nature is healing.
not healing unless we make sure it can't happen again.
otherwise we are just one bullshit away from doing it again.
states should ban stay at home orders constitutionally, the FDA and CDC have to be dismantled and so on.
and Europe is in an even worse place
Yes Luciom has a timeline problem in regard to C19. All his C19 posts should have an asterisk added.
lol no problem guys, just don't ask why we actively want to bring people and parties down and we relish in the suffering of people who many of you are surprised we can deeply hate.
you don't understand this is civil war level for many of us? fine.
don't be surprised if we ever get power and use it in full, without remorse, to make even with what happened and to guarantee, at any cost, it will never happen again.
many people allowed the house arrest of my children. I hold every one of them personally responsible and there is only one possible sentence.
Incredible.
2020 lockdowns were likely a mistake in hindsight, but completely fine/good given the info we had
subsequent lockdowns were simply harmful
2020 lockdowns were likely a mistake in hindsight, but completely fine/good given the info we had
subsequent lockdowns were simply harmful
no given literature didn't suggest them at all. not at all.
and a big no for ethical reasons as well: you should never even think of harming children because you think doing so could help elders (even if it's true).
would you cut a child leg to save the lives of x elders? would you even entertain the thought?
no given literature didn't suggest them at all. not at all.
and a big no for ethical reasons as well: you should never even think of harming children because you think doing so could help elders (even if it's true).
would you cut a child leg to save the lives of x elders? would you even entertain the thought?
