LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

oh, yall wanna suck his dick, is that it?

Sounds to me like losing Horace Grant hurt the Bulls nearly as much as losing MJ. No wonder the Bulls were so good when they had MJ, Grant and Pippen. It's interesting that when you have a chance to independently evaluate the impact of MJ's top teammates when they weren't overshadowed by MJ, they look much better.

There’s tons of other metrics that have Lebron > AD this year as well. You can cherry pick some that slightly favor AD, but overall Lebron grades out better across the board.

Even if you were to take the position that AD has been better, it would be marginal/uncertain and your position would be something like AD has been the 9-10th best player and Lebron has been 10-11th or something. Bear in mind Lebron is 8+ years older with about quadruple the miles on him. In relation to MJ, MJ wasn’t even a top 50 player at Lebrons age with far less minutes and two retirements.

Acting like this isn’t an incredible feat is just more proof on how good Lebron is - the standard he is held to is otherworldly, by both those who like and dislike him. Being an all-NBA level player at age 39+ in year 21 is handwaved away because he has another very good teammate in his prime who he’s “only” debatably better than.

Lebron's stat page on nba.com redirects to the player index page!!

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/

What are they hiding?

I wanted to compare AD's net rating and plus-minus and other things to Lebron's, but I can't because the NBA is hiding something.

Cleaning the Glass is a good source that allows you to easily look at on/off data and filter lineups to your liking. It is free (for that) and I cited it above. I believe the data may filter out garbage time so it might differ slightly from nba.com or bbref.

Regardless, AD does not compare favorably to Lebron in any on/off data. Not much of a knock on AD as almost no players in NBA history do since the data began being tracked.

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All-time rankings

PER

4. AD
24. Wade
34. Kyrie
140. Pippen

WS/48

17. AD
72. Kyrie
77. Wade
139. Pippen

BPM

10. AD
25. Wade
34. Kyrie
36. Pippen

Wade's best years were achieved before he won with Lebron, while Pippen needed 3 chips (winning spotlight) to inflate him before he had those levels (his top years were post-1993).. It's also meaningful that Wade was reduced by Lebron, while Pippen always grew in stats and stature alongside MJ.

Furthermore, MVP is nowhere near a ranking of "best player" and at no point was Pippen considered on the level of guys that led teams to the Finals like Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, Barkley. Malone or MJ... Otoh, Wade was infact considered the best player or next-best player in the league on several occasions.

Specifically, Pippen was never #2 statistically in anything let alone across the board like Wade was several years - so Wade earned his media accolade by being the best, while Pippen was #3 for MVP based on winning spotlight inflation, surprise factor and the fact that any Tom, Dick and Harry has achieved similar MVP rankings like IT, Blake Griffin or Devin Booker...

In contrast to Pippen's media accolade being based on winning spotlight after winning 3 chips, Wade needed league-best performance to merit his MVP levels, which was reduced upon teaming up with Lebron.. It's clear that comparing Pippen to Wade reveals that Pippen's media accolade is inflated based on unprecedented winning spotlight (and he grew in stature alongside MJ), while Wade earned his media accolade via league-best performance (and he was reduced alongside Lebron).
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To keep things a bit light, I tried to see if the entire 08-09 Cavs on/off could be explained by a single variable - how much did each player get to play with Lebron. Here's a funny result:

Player, Net share of minutes with Lebron, Net On/Off
Lebron 1 21.2
Mo Williams 0.03540595041 3.4
Anderson Varejao 0.08130936424 2.1
Delonte West 0.3221383295 10.7
Daniel Gibson -0.3397934259 -6.1
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 0.1472976625 7.3
Wally Sczerbiak -0.2935391308 -8.1
Ben Wallace 0.2692387461 11.8
Sash Pavlovic -0.2189342066 -7.4
JJ Hickson -0.4512422801 -18.8

Where net share of minutes with Lebron = (Team minutes with player and Lebron / team minutes with player) - (Team minutes with Lebron but not player / Team minutes without player), in other words, % of player's ON minutes that had Lebron - % of player's OFF minutes that had Lebron.

The correlation is more or less perfect: r = .947, r^2 = .897

Now, this correlation is stronger than what you'd expect even if Lebron literally played with 10 identical replacement-level players, so there's some luck involved in the numbers coming out this way, but it is hilarious that the Cavs 08-09 season is perhaps best explained by Lebron being a +20/100 player (which would be roughly twice as good as anyone else ever) and everyone else being roughly replacement-level.

How do we know?

The official data that comes straight from the tracking cameras (SportsVu) isn't available because Lebron's stat page on NBA.com isn't accessible and redirects to the player index page..

It's laughable just like when they hid the time of possession data for 6 months after Lebron set the record for it.

Btw, it's true that Lebron stat-pads against the weaker teams and then it's AD-ball against all the top teams like Boston, Bucks, Nuggets, etc... Anytime the Lakers play a top team, it's AD-ball all day long - Lakers fans and media are like: "AD please dominate so we can beat a top team because bron-ball is actually shyte and only viable against garbage teams like the Nets or Hawks"

Not true... Jordan set the record for plus-minus in 1997 and Curry/Draymond broke his record in 2016 - Lebron is nowhere to be found in there

you ever think about how joker should be receiving his 4th straight mvp this year? goat oat

Yeah Kendrick stopped Jokic from getting 3 in a row and good for Kendrick - the only cool thing he's done as an announcer.

But the reality is that they made excuses for all the greats to NOT get MVP because MJ should've won every year from 87-93' and maybe even 95' because the Bulls had a severe downwards trajectory towards being a perennial lottery team in 95' or 96' and thereafter but then MJ restored 3-peat caliber and immediate severe upwards trajectory towards 3-peat and goat winning.. a severe upward trajectory IMMEDIATELY upon returning to turn a perennial lottery bound franchise back towards 3-peat

idk seems pretty dumb and racist. not very surprised though, as he's one of the dumbest ppl i've ever had the misfortune of seeing on television

Lebron was nearly 30 wins above replacement over MJ in a graphic posted 4 years ago.

Lebron has been dominant so long, he well cleared MJ and everyone else in RAPTOR, then continued to play at an all-NBA level until the website that calculated it folded. Incredible.

LeBron’s NBA.com stats page also loads for those of us that haven’t had their brains melted:

Spoiler: Cleaning the Glass isn’t fabricating data and the Lakers do indeed have a much better net rating with Lebron on than AD on.

^^^ bs and explained poorly

otoh, it's clear why the Cavs increased their wins by so much in 2009 by looking at the starting lineups, which were the same in 08' and 09' except the off-guard position.. Hughes started for the first half of 08' with 0.042 win share per 48, while Sasha Pavlovic started the 2nd half with 0.006 WS/48, and this next-to-zero contribution to wins was increased to 0.165 WS/48 in 2009 via the continuity of an all-star combo-guard (81 starts by Mo Williams).. That's the biggest change in contribution to wins (WS/48) among the starters..

This continuity at the primary "spacer" position clarified the starting lineup by also making Delonte a full-time starter over Boobie (the hero and dominator of the 07' closeout game that carried Lebron to Finals).. Of course it's intuitive that tremendous continuity and all-star caliber at the primary spacer position would catapult Lebron's stiff arm to MVP level and yield optimal chemistry for the team.. So again, Mo Williams' presence as Lebron's first all-star spacer was the reason for the win increase and catapult in chemistry.

Btw, net on/off or even plus/minus doesn't measure dominance as much as it measures flimsy chemistry because great teams like the 90's Bulls or recent Warriors have many players with league-leading plus/minus - they don't have 1 guy dominating the distribution of plus/minus, which indicates horrible, monopolistic and simpleton brand that will get massively upset in the playoffs... And that's what we see from high-scoring ball-dominators in the playoffs - they have historic loss or basketball lesson such as 90' Magic, 09' Lebron, 22' Luka and 11' Lebron, while CP3, Nash and Oscar were taught basketball lessons via many bitter losses and fan disappointment..

Regardless, any great ball-dominator can achieve historic on/off net ratings by employing the point guard skillset such as Magic, CP3, Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, 89' MJ, or Nash... But this style requires ridiculous help to win and it's intuitive that "passers" will need all-time scoring help that Magic, Lebron and Luka obviously need.. Ultimately, getting assists or tricking defenses and then letting lesser teammates bail you out is easy and much easier than the great instince required to play off teammates (off-ball) or get repeated clutch baskets with series momentum and outcome on the line.

he's clearly a tool for Lebron that you agree is dumb, yet you agree with all the other guys just like him such as Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe and Ryan Hollins?

And even guys like Broussard, Skip and Paul Pierce are under the hypnosis/fraud that Lebron's rosters chock-full of stars and really good players are actually bad, which means he's overcoming odds, carrying a bad roster, and "upsetting" an opponent if he wins.

But proof that he has the best on-paper supporting talent in the NBA can be seen in the preseason odds, since that's a measure of on-paper talent before any team actually plays - Lebron's rosters start as the preseason favorite but this favored talent falls to underdog or loser every year - Bron-ball always underachieves favored talent (loses with preseason favorite, or falls to "underdog")..

The exception is the Allen miracle and the "bubble" title, but the Lakers were the only team that had pulled off a historic heist to get AD, so they were the only team uniquely-motivated to snare that ring with no one really looking or giving a ****.. Otherwise, the Lakers have fallen to perennial underdog despite having AD and Lebron, while all his other teams from 2011-2016 similarly fell to underdog once everyone saw how crappy bron-ball was yet again.

i only know who 1 of those ppl are (the one who was a hof football player), but not really familiar with his dumb takes, no. sorry

Not against the good teams and that's why the Lakers have such an underachieving record and seeding.. The Lakers are letting Lebron him impose an inferior record and seeding on the team so that he can play Bron-ball against all the sub-par teams, but unfortunately it doesn't even work at the same frequency against the sub-par teams anymore - the Lakers should run it through AD against ALL teams to achieve their best record, not just the top teams where they turn to him like "pretty please??... dominate for us and carry us?.. bron-ball going to get us blown out tonight.. ".

even guys like Broussard, Skip and Paul Pierce are under the hypnosis/fraud that Lebron's rosters - chock-full of stars and really good players - are actually bad, which means he's overcoming odds, carrying a bad roster, and "upsetting" an opponent if he wins.

But proof that he has the best on-paper supporting talent in the NBA can be seen in the preseason odds, since that's a measure of on-paper talent before any team actually plays - Lebron's rosters start as the preseason favorite but this favored talent falls to underdog or loser every year - Bron-ball always underachieves favored talent (loses with preseason favorite, or falls to "underdog")..

The exception is the Allen miracle and the "bubble" title, but the Lakers were the only team that had pulled off a historic heist to get AD, so they were the only team uniquely-motivated to snare that ring with no one really looking or giving a ****.. Otherwise, the Lakers have fallen to perennial underdog despite having AD and Lebron, while all his other teams from 2011-2016 similarly fell to underdog once everyone saw how crappy bron-ball was yet again.

Anyone that thinks Lebron had a "bad team" in 2009 and 2010 should know that it would be pretty bad for an all-time great to not develop good chemistry by Year 6 or 7 - so the idea that he was carrying a bad team is no sillier than saying Giannis carried bums to 60 wins in 2019.. The only difference is that Lebron gave up on figuring out how to perfect the chemistry and win with his style, while Giannis stuck around and figured it out..

Sure it takes a little longer for awkward guys like Lebron, Giannis or Jokic but Lebron was only a couple years from getting over the hump.. Maybe if he could have an 07' ECF performance against an actual top team (beat top 5 SRS opponent with weak help, aka beat top team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick)..

And the distinguishing thing about MJ was that he had all-time and occasionally goat on-off while winning titles - no one combined goat individual dominance with goat team success except Jordan, aka 41/9/6 to 3-peat (while sidekick clogged the lane via 0% from 3 and 59% from line.. 46 ts overall).

Good point there. Only Lew, Shaq and Mike (6 times) in the modern era led the league in scoring while titling. There's something, a lot, to be said for leading the league in scoring, lighting up the stat sheet elsewhere ... all while spearheading titles. Nobody else did that habitually except you know who. Jordan was doing things with that scoring title no one else ever did. He was no George Gervin.

I think it’s more about the right handed of lebron was always better then the right handed of mj ?

DWade, AD, Kyrie > pippen ?

Yeah ppg isn’t evrything but it does really matter right ?
Could we find the goat with like 15 ppg ?

let’s say if we play a game of choosing and since I’m beginning u have the second and third choice and i got the 4th .

I obv choose mj and u choose lebron
but what u do with your 3rd choice if u have to choose between russell and wilt
OR Kareem and magic ?

Fwiw I would go with Kareem or wilt every time ?

I'd be fairly certain people who think AD is better but aren't LBJ haters either haven't watched very many Laker games and / or have listened to throwaway snippets from Simmons or the like on the one or two Lakers games they have watched.

AD is having a good year, he's still a ~top 15 player. But LeBron elevates everything more, he is more efficient and more consistent still.

But I do think LBJ is probably correctly ranked ~10th in the league at this point. He is definitely declining, it's just that the gradual nature of that decline is proving to be one of one. The reason it matters is because we can directly compare LBJ's age 38 and age 39 seasons to MJ's. And this is where the dedication to the game is shining through. LeBron has kept himself better physically, he still can run the court and still can bully his way inside at will. Plus he has put in the hours of practice on weaknesses, resulting in the best 3 point shooting year of his career, at 39. The ability to slow decline in the things that made you great through all the effort on working out and recovering; allied to finding ways to actually add to and improve previous weaknesses - this is the essence of the GOAT career.

Russell is absolutely a top 5-7 player.

When you're the best player and defensive anchor of a dynasty that nearly always won, that matters. It largely didn't matter who was around Russell. The Celtics won the moment they drafted Russell.

Jordan won 70 games with poor man's AD, so simply being a "contender" with the real AD is unacceptable for goat consideration..

It's completely disqualifying.. Anything short of a dynasty with another "star" falls short of goat-caliber.

Accordingly, every tenure that Lebron had with various teams has fallen far short of goat caliber because he mostly has weak records and loses, i.e. 1/4 with AD or Love and 2/4 with Wade - none of this compares to MJ being unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star (6/6).

This is a massive understatement because peak Wade might be better than Kobe - the idea that secondary producers like Pippen, Klay or peak Igoudala are anywhere NEAR wade is absurd.

Btw, Pippen declined from 96-99' - he was horrible and worse than Wade.

13-16' Wade............. 21/5/5.... 21 PER

Prime Pippen.......... 20/7/5..... 21 PER

^^^ Lebron fans complain about Wade because he fell to prime Pippen level from 13-16'.

Fossil Wade nearly led the 16' Heat to the ECF by playing better than Pippen ever did.. This is statistical fact.

Kyrie was going to be a great player regardless and was great right away, while Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 PPG and needed a ton of development - there's no guarantee that he becomes an all-timer anywhere else, nor would he have the goat ring count to prop up his pedestrian numbers and historic bricklaying/low efficiency.

Pippen never dominated and was inflated by winning spotlight, while Kyrie was always going to be great regardless - he's great with Dallas and was league MVP with Boston before the injury in 2018 (Celtics were the best team in league), while Pippen was a complete bum outside of the system that he grew up in - trash in Houston and Portland - completely exposed

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