LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

How did the 07' Cavs have better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls when Lebron wasn't even all-defense?

It's because the Cavs' cast had 4 good defenders compared to only 2 for the Bulls... Snow, Hughes, Zydrunas and Varejao is more defensive help than Pippen and Grant... In 2008, the Cavs had Ben Wallace, Zydrunas, Varejao, Hughes and Delonte, which is better defensive help than Pippen & Grant... Varejao, Zydrunas and Wallace is like having 3 Grant's.

Overall, lebron simply played with FAR more good defenders - anyone can go through the rosters and see that Lebron had far more good rebounders, athletic guards, rim protectors and players with all-defense on their resume.. It isn't remotely close.. You guys are just in denial about Lebron's lower burden on both ends (no all-defense and didn't carry scoring load like MJ).

You knock MJ for losing as a rookie or 40-year old, but but excuse prime Lebron for lottery in 2019

Then you excuse 1st Round loss in 2021

Then you excuse missed the play-in in 2022

So how can you ask what happened with old Jordan as a Wizard but then ignore prime Lebron being lottery in 2019 or missing play-in in 2022?

Stuff like this confirms a fake debate

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Recent Thread Cliffs

Jordan was required to be 1st team defender for every chip, while Lebron wasn't required to be all-defense for half his chips and didn't carry the scoring burden ANYWHERE NEAR jordan's level.

Lebron's inability to carry the 2-way burden like MJ required far more scoring help and far more good defenders, which includes FAR more rebounders, FAR more shot-blockers, FAR more athletic guards, and FAR more players with all-defense on their resume.

If you list the good defenders that Lebron played with and compare to Jordan's, it's not even close - Lebron played with FAR more good defenders and obviously far more good scorers.. This is the historical record.

The 80's Lakers were led by Kareem, not Magic - Kareem is generally the higher-ranked player all-time

Regardless, Magic and Lebron are losers on the championship level by virtue of their 9-10 Finals record - if they cannot win on the championship level, then no one can - their losing Finals record confirms the brand of ball is a loser

so all of my "takes" are literally historical record and fully-supported by the historical record.. but carry on in ignorance.. it would honestly disappoint me if everyone started viewing the game like I do and got up to my knowledge level.. The most fascinating thing about all this is how little everyone seems to know about the game and how brainwashed they are by Klutch Sports - Klutch managed to convince the media and many fans that the biggest loser of all-time (by virtue of the lowest winning frequency of any top 10 candidate and more bad losses than anyone in history) is actually a winner, and a simpleton point guard skillset that needs the most help ever and still mostly loses is actually the greatest..

So after thoroughly debunking fallguy's false narrative by pointing out that LeBron James has had exactly two teammates make all-defense, he shamelessly repeats the same garbage all over again:

I don't care for banning people for having a different opinion, but at what point does it just become mindless and shameless spam, posted over and over again?

What does he add to the discussion when it's just the same repeated lies?

LeBron James has played for more teams than Michael Jordan, just that fact alone will mean that LeBron James will have played with more players who were all-stars or all-defense at some point during their careers. Fallguy constantly cites this as "proof" of LeBron having more "help" but anyone can see through this bullshit. I mean by that logic the best player LeBron played with was Shaquille O'Neal. Why didn't LeBron win with Shaq?

Surely this has to be considered spam at this point?

I really feel bad for fallguy. This "debate" seems to be his entire worldview and gives him his sense of self-worth.

He's not interested in a fair and balanced debate because any time he's debunked he'll just pretend nothing happened and re-post the same crap a few hours later. There's no shame in it too, it's like watching a flat-earther or a creationist continuously get owned and then re-post the same spam again and claim victory.

I honestly couldn't give two shits about who the basketball GOAT is, or will be 50 years from now, but I think fallguy would have a mental breakdown if someone other than Michael Jordan were to be considered the eternal basketball GOAT. It's literally a religion for him. To his dying breath he will **** on other great players that come up in the next 30 years because they aren't Michael Jordan.

On one hand, I want to be like "you're right, Jordan is the GOAT, don't worry about big bad LeBron, he's not real" because I just feel bad for him for placing so much importance on this that he literally needs to constantly lie to himself and everyone else in order to not go crazy. On the other hand, it's like grow the **** up, this whole LeBron hate is embarrassing and sad for a grown man. Go get some actual hobbies man.

The counter, in fairness, is just let him have his no. XXX account and spam his MJ religiosity in this thread.

But I agree SABR42, there's no genuine attempt to debate playing out. It's up for discussion whether that's because TWOG genuinely believes it or is just trolling. I think sometimes it is the former and sometimes the latter, personally.

Keep thread open to give old LeBron teammates their flowers, imo.

Larry HUGHEs - All Star!
Boobie Gibson - Rich Mans Steve Kerr
Big Z - ALL STAR
Da Birdman - basically Rodman
Drew Gooden - Problem!

lolollllollllll

Yeah nobody is as high on the 2007 Cavs as TWOG.

Wasnt debating anything bro.

You're the one that keeps posting debunked crap.

We already debunked the all-defense narrative by pointing out that having a non-center, all-defender like Pippen and mostly bad defenders after him isn't as much defensive help as having great rim protection and many good defenders throughout the roster (regardless of whether they made all-defense during the specific years they played with Lebron).

Then we demonstrated this concept by showing the actual historical record:

Lebron wasn't all-defense in 2007 (or 2008), yet his team had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls because they had far more good defenders and an all-time defensive coach.. In 2008, the team added Ben Wallace, who averaged more blocks and was far superior to any center Jordan ever had, while still having Varejao and Zydrunas.. That's like having 3 Horace Grants while still having recent all-defenders in Snow and Hughes... This is clearly far more defensive help than MJ had, hence the higher defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls in 07', 09' and 10'.

And Lebron became all-defense in 09' and 10', but he clearly had better defensive help long before this.

Unrefuted stuff gets repeated (incoming)..

In addition to having more rim protection and more good defenders than the 1st three-peat Bulls, Lebron wasn't required to play great defense like MJ (no all-defense for the last 10 years and for half his chips)

Lebron's greater defensive help and lower defensive load (no all-defense) hasn't been refuted, so I must repeat it.

I have to repeat stuff because when I refute your point (like the all-defense narrative), you re-post the same crap that was just refuted - you stick to your debunked point instead of addressing my rebuttal.

Furthermore, 90% of what I post isn't responded to, such as my point that Lebron/Magic are 9-10 on the championship level (Finals) - this is incredible support of my narrative that the ball-dominant style is a loser, since the greatest ball-dominators of all-time aren't winning players with it on the championship level.

But no one addresses this point and historical record, so I have to repeat it (incoming)... Magic and Lebron are 9-10 on the Finals levels, mostly with super-teams - if they can't win with the ball-dominant style, then no one can.
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This is the dumbest thing you've posted so far because it shows that after thousands of posts, you have zero insight into the kind of fan that I am

I would be ecstatic if someone came along that was better than MJ because that player would be unreal.. an absolute alien - completely mind-blowing.

Humans like to be in awe and I'm no different.. This is particularly true if you're an actual basketball player like myself that can go outside and add new GOAT moves to my "bag".

I would revel and thoroughly enjoy the goat basketball that I was witnessing.. I would start crapping and laughing at MJ's inferiority when I compare it to the new goat (kind of like I do with LeBrick).

Unfortunately, that isn't what we have here.. We have a player that lacks gracefullness, elite jumpshooting skill and hoops instinct to play off teammates, so he's just a simpleton ball-dominator with no "bag", bad fits, and a lottery record on the championship level.. His teams are the "pistons" of the Finals... A complete fraud... His inferiority can be articulated clearly - a roadmap to why this guy is the biggest loser in championship history.
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Curry and AD paired together win 3 titles minimum (probably more) and then Labron fans whine non-stop about how he had to play against such stacked teams etc etc etc etc.

but hes not good at camping out on the 3 point line and waiting for Lebron to pass him the ball, therefore he's a cancer and everything is his fault. the Lakers are just thriving without him!

No attempt to debate?.. The following post refuted each of the Klutch Sports lies that SABR had in his post, but my rebuttals got zero response - just doubling down on the same debunked crap

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...

you guys must have mental issues with some of the ridiculous conclusions you come up with (no attempt at debate, smh... I'm not sure what's a worse conclusion - thinking that I don't debate and refute every point that is made, or thinking the biggest loser in hoops history is actually goat

anyone with a skillset that forces teammates into spot-up role and consistently produces bad fits demonstrates an extraordinary lack of basketball skill..... bad fits = skill deficit...

In this case, everyone made the playoffs with Westbrook, except Lebron, because everyone was a good jumpshooter, except Lebron... Guys like KD, Beal, Harden or PG13 are considered good jumpshooters, so they had no problem making the playoffs with Lebron.

The all-defense "narrative" is not a narrative, it's pure fact.

It's not an opinion that LeBron has had 2 all-defense teammates for his career.

It matters because you list every single washed up veteran who was all-defense like 5-10 years before teaming up with LeBron, and try to convince people that this is more "help" than having prime Scottie Pippen for 8 straight seasons.

It's a completely dishonest argument, but you always pull this bullshit. You will no longer be replied to after this. I've done my work.

And it's fact that having many good defenders throughout the roster is more defensive help than having 1 all-defender that is a non-center.

this is hoops 101

Lebron's greater defensive help is how the 07' Cavs had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls despite Lebron not being considered a good defender at that time

Btw, newflash - the mods are f'ing with you because you're really young so they're having fun by putting you in the title and hoping it annoys me.

I saw through it the instant they did it.

you apparently didn't, kid

Ultimately, Lebron had far more offensive help than all of Jordan's teams and more defensive help than Jordan's teams through his 1st three-peat.

In the 1991 Finals, Jordan defended Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4 and 5, except the last 4 minutes of Game 4, while also guarding him for the 2nd half and OT of Game 3..

The only game where Jordan wasn't the primary defender on Magic was Game 2, where Jordan only defended Magic for the 1st quarter...

Overall, Jordan guarded Magic for over 70% of possessions and 14 of 20 quarters plus the OT.. It's the goat 2-way performance in a Finals and probably ever.. It's rare for one player to spend so much time guarding another player but Jordan's performance on both ends was always goat-caliber.

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2011 ECF

DERRICK ROSE....... 120 total shot attempts.... 16 defended by Lebron (13%)

lmao

Lebron barely guarded Rose, which doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender for the entire series on Magic, Drexler and Miller, or full games on Isiah or Payton, while holding them to poor shooting and below their normal PPG.

Furthermore, Bosh and Wade averaged 24 and 19 in that series respectively, so Lebron had great energy because he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) like MJ always did.. It's remarkable that MJ played the best defense despite facing max defensive attention on offense (carrying scoring load), whereas Lebron was relatively carried on offense and barely guarded Rose... It's night and day.

Ultimately, guys like MJ or Duncan are better than lebron defensively because they play better defense, despite being less versatile... this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.
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Sad!

I'm the wrong one to ask but probably guys like Rakim, Slick Rick or KRS One

Sort by obscure old-school rappers

And here comes Jokic with the point center dominance.

Of course he (literally blindly) loves Steph as he's not really the point on the team, that's Draymond (another point forward/center).

Kudos to MJ tho, he didn't really win with a point on the team. Him and Scottie shared duties similar to a Booker and Durant currently. Of course, it was a simpler time back then. He was the tallest midget going against teams centered around centers. It was all very plodding and slow. Iso scorers and Zach Edeys abounded.

2005 Hughes............ 22 ppg
2006 Hughes............ 14 PPG

2009 Jamison............ 22 ppg
2010 Jamison............ 16 ppg

2010 Bosh................. 24 ppg
2011 Bosh................. 19 ppg

2014 Love.................. 26 ppg
2015 Love.................. 16 ppg

2021 Westbrook....... 22 ppg
2022 Westbrook....... 18 ppg

^^^ the worst part is that Lebron lowers his teammates PPG and assists .

I'm sure there's context in some cases but it's a clear trend... And other confirmed bad fits like Ingram, Kuzma, Clarkson, IT and others weren't listed.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or Jordan have no such record of cratering teammates.. Their skillsets weren't limited to ball-dominance that hinders teammate development, fits and chemistry..

Whereas Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance reduces teammates assists and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), so he literally turns teammates into spot-up shooter.. Lower teammate assists yields low TEAM assists and a weaker brand that has a lottery record in the championship level.

Btw, Boobie Gibson carried Lebron in the closeout game of the 2007 ECF with 31 points compared to Lebron's bed-wetting... Show me where Paxson dominated a closeout game to carry Jordan to the Finals .. Meanwhile, guys like Haslem, Birdman, Gooden, Boozer, Jamison , Love, Bosh, and more show that Lebron had 3-5 Horace Grants (including numerous rich man's Horace's) on every team he was on.

Jokic doesn't dominate the ball

He doesn't pound the rock and ask for high screen rolls.. He has literally half the time of possession as prime lebron...

This lack of ball-dominance means that he doesn't impose spot-up roles that hinders teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching like Lebron does.. It's interesting because Jordan lack of ball-dominance and post excellence mirrors Jokic, while Lebron's ball-dominance is the opposite..

As an expert jumpshooter, Curry can get 40 while the ball moves, which yields better fits, teammate development, strategic capacity/coaching and ultimately, team ceiling/Finals record.

Lebron needed better assist guys than Pippen, since Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook and Rondo average more APG than Pippen... Other 90's sidekicks did too (Payton, Stockton, KJ, Hardaway), so everyone averaged more assists than Pippen.. Jordan didn't enjoy all-time floor generals like other 1st options in the 90's had.

It's much easier to iso in today's spaced-out game because the definition of "spacing" means that help defenders are further away, while the hands-off rules and empty paint further ease the iso game... You never saw centers dominate like Jokic, Embiid or Giannis - they have the highest PER's ever, and you literally never saw Harden-ball or Luka-ball or Lebron-ball back then from anyone, not even great ball-handlers... It wasn't possible with the format back then..

Iso's had to be done much quicker without spacing - "quick-iso'ing" your man was a thing, although that specific terminology wasn't necessarily used... But the lack of spacing forced players to make shots ON defenders, and this superior contested-shot-making ability allowed players to "iso" their man in spots that today's player cannot.. Today's player needs tons and space and a situation where an uncontested layup has high likelihood.