LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
DPOY voting is stupid
It's a good sign that he was able to lead a variety of different casts to a championship. Jordan really led the same team 6 times. Both did amazing with what they had.
If Kawhi could lead the clippers to a title, he could also have a finals mvp for 3 different teams. It's a rare feat, and it represents something. Jordan isn't knocked for not doing it though, he did something different.
Like what would be more impressive, the 4 rings that LeBron has, or if he had 4peated with the Heat but won no other titles?
It's a good sign that he was able to lead a variety of different casts to a championship. Jordan really led the same team 6 times. Both did amazing with what they had.
If Kawhi could lead the clippers to a title, he could also have a finals mvp for 3 different teams. It's a rare feat, and it represents something. Jordan isn't knocked for not doing it though, he did something different.
Like what would be more impressive, the 4 rings that LeBron has, or if he had 4peated with the Heat but
Lebron bringing a title to Cleveland is the most impressive thing. and beating a 73 win team. **** is biblical.
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Final thread cliffs (fleshed out courtesy LL and SABR)
The goat standard is being "unbeatable" with goat winning the instant a franchise player receives 1 all-star teammate.
"Unbeatable" means perennial favorite status every year, 60-70 wins most years, a perfect championship record, and never losing 3 straight games for 9 regular seasons & Playoffs (90-98').. aka "unbeatable".. And obviously never losing as a favorite of any kind - preseason favorite, home court or top seed (1 or 2 seed).
How does one achieve unbeatable status with just 1 other star?.. It can be achieved any number of ways but Jordan became unbeatable by achieving the goat production rates (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP) while carrying the goat scoring burden and playing goat defense - he defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load) far more than anyone in history while still playing goat defense (the goat energy).. He's the only player that was good enough to use the most possessions in the league while still achieving championship brand of ball (winning titles as usage champ).. And only peak Kareem in 71' and peak Shaq in 2000 won titles as scoring champ, so their peak burden was Jordan's standard burden..
These are the ways that the GOAT was "unbeatable" with just 1 other star.
And don't try to boost a sidekick that achieved worst-ever shooting splits on playoff runs, while also having weak career ranks in production rate such as PER, WS, BPM (weak stats), and low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq) - a Klay Thompson or Larry Nance-level performer that the winning spotlight inflated to all-time status and media accolade.. Pippen was clearly inferior to Wade/AD, while Horace or fossil Rodman were inferior to decorated franchise players like Bosh or Love.
Everyone except the coach and the no.2
Look MJ was great, but the Bulls put the right guys around him and we KNOW how good Jackson was over the fullness of time.
But I mean, if you don’t think it’s cool to be able to go three different franchises and win, well I don’t know what to say. Three places, three fanbases, three sets of media, three front offices, lots of different coaches, three completely different casts and titles in each spot. It’s objectively awesome imo!
Everyone except the coach and the no.2
Look MJ was great, but the Bulls put the right guys around him and we KNOW how good Jackson was over the fullness of time.
But I mean, if you don’t think it’s cool to be able to go three different franchises and win, well I don’t know what to say. Three places, three fanbases, three sets of media, three front offices, lots of different coaches, three completely different casts and titles in each spot. It’s objectively awesome imo!
This post right here is why you’re the CO-MVP of the thread.
fallyguy on the other hand? Doesn’t even deserve an honorable mention. How he can talk about basketball without even watching it for a decade+ is beyond laughable.
Everyone is more skilled and the NBA draws on a bigger talent pool due to the international aspect. Heck, the best 5 guys in the league are arguably all international (Jokic/Giannis/Luka/Embiid/SGA) at this point! The NBA today is tougher and more competitive than any other era in it’s history!
This post right here is why you’re the CO-MVP of the thread.
fallyguy on the other hand? Doesn’t even deserve an honorable mention. How he can talk about basketball without even watching it for a decade+ is beyond laughable.
Everyone is more skilled and the NBA draws on a bigger talent pool due to the international aspect. Heck, the best 5 guys in the league are arguably all international (Jokic/Giannis/Luka/Embiid/SGA) at this point! The NBA today is tougher and more competitive than any other
I just think a lot of people are stuck in the 89 Pistons -> 2010 Lakers era. It's such a definable era of the game at this point. Low scoring, , slow pace, hard defense, more limited spacing and less shooting from deep. The current NBA media landscape is stuffed with former players from this window of time and / or journalists who idolised players from that era. It is incredibly clear that the sport has moved on, both in terms of style and quality; but many people will simply refuse to move with it.
As always, the issue is not with someone thinking Jordan is the GOAT. The issue is with someone being completely close minded to the idea that anything outside a very narrow window of nba history could ever be considered to have the best players or the best teams. Or in TWOG's case, that he's talking down the modern game at every opportunity inspite of admitting that he checked out in 2011.
Maybe we will all go this way in decades to come: reminiscing about the free scoring high pace high 3 point attempt era as the best ever, fixated on LeBron as the GOAT and the Warriors as the GOAT team. Because if you will be of a mind to do that, the NBA landscape in 2040 will support you in doing that. With Curry and Durant and Draymond back in the studio getting the last word on the biggest games.
I just think a lot of people are stuck in the 89 Pistons -> 2010 Lakers era. It's such a definable era of the game at this point. Low scoring, , slow pace,
hard defense, more limited spacing and less shooting from deep. The current NBA media landscape is stuffed with former players from this window of time and / or journalists who idolised players from that era. It is incredibly clear that the sport has moved on,
both in terms of style and quality
Today's players shoot a bunch of wide open shots and had big lanes for easy passing, which isn't more skilled than the contested shot-making ability, quicker instinct and threading needles that the no-spacing eras forced players to have.
The problem is that Lebron got a 6-year headstart in the colluding space before anyone responded in 2017 (KD) and then 2019 (Kawhi).. No one was "teaming up" from 2011-2016 - only Lebron.
So his Finals appearance were padded by having this 6-year advantage (8 year advantage if we're talking his advantage in the East before anyone else responded).
History shows that 2-star dynasties are impossible unless the top 2 players in the NBA are on the same team (Shaq/Kobe).....
or if the GOAT gets an all-star teammate.
otherwise it takes 3+ stars to have a dynasty.
Accordingly, the goat standard is being unbeatable the instant you get 1 all-star teammate - it's clear that being unbeatable with 1 star is better than mostly losing with 2 stars (Lebron).
"unbeatable" is defined as perennial favorite status, 60-70 wins, multiple 3-peats, perfect championship record, and never losing more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98') the instant you get an all-star teammate.. That's the GOAT standard
By "more skilled", you mean 3-point shooting and carrying/traveling, aka modern dribbling.
Otherwise, today's era needs cookie-cutter situations to do anything and struggle in lesser-spaced formats that require quicker instinct and better contested-shot-making ability.. Ultimately, today's era has the same deficit on 2-point shot-making ability that previous eras had on 3-pointers.
and the NBA draws on a bigger talent pool due to the international aspect. Heck, the best 5 guys in the league are arguably all international (Jokic/Giannis/Luka/Embiid/SGA) at this point!
^^^ the "greater international pool" argument works against Lebron because these guys like Giannis, Jokic, Luka or SGA have passed Lebron and are better scorer-passer-rebounders than Lebron ever was - he hasn't won anything since they started winning rings - only Curry has shown that his brand of ball stands the test of time by carrying Wiggins to a title.
The league is getting back to the intense parity of the 90's after the 2010's was the decade of teaming up.. It's harder to be one of many Finals-caliber teams (1990's and 2020's) than being one of 2 colluded super-teams with free trips to the Finals (2010's).
History shows that 2-star dynasties are impossible unless the top 2 players in the NBA are on the same team (Shaq/Kobe).....
or if the GOAT gets an all-star teammate.
otherwise it takes 3+ stars to have a dynasty.
Accordingly, the goat standard is being unbeatable the instant you get 1 all-star teammate - it's clear that being unbeatable with 1 star is better than mostly losing with 2 stars (Lebron).
"unbeatable" is defined as perennial favorite status, 60-70 wins, multiple 3-peats, perfect championship record, and never losing more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98') the instant you get an all-star teammate.. That's the GOAT standard
How could Jordan score so much without being "ball dominant" or whatever it is Lebron does incorrectly
The problem is that Lebron got a 6-year headstart in the colluding space before anyone responded in 2017 (KD) and then 2019 (Kawhi).. No one was "teaming up" from 2011-2016 - only Lebron.
So his Finals appearance were padded by having this 6-year advantage (8 year advantage if we're talking his advantage in the East before anyone else responded).
History shows that 2-star dynasties are impossible unless the top 2 players in the NBA are on the same team (Shaq/Kobe).....
or if the GOAT gets an all-star teammate.
otherwise it takes 3+ stars to have a dynasty.
Accordingly, the goat standard is being unbeatable the instant you get 1 all-star teammate - it's clear that being unbeatable with 1 star is better than mostly losing with 2 stars (Lebron).
"unbeatable" is defined as perennial favorite status, 60-70 wins, multiple 3-peats, perfect championship record, and never losing more than 2 straight games for 9 years (90-98') the instant you get an all-star teammate.. That's the GOAT standard
How could Jordan score so much without being "ball dominant" or whatever it is Lebron does incorrectly
Imagine if Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson took 30 shots
That's what MJ did
He was an OFF-guard that played off-ball and rarely dominated the ball with live dribbles like Lebron does.
When Lebron drops 40, it's a ball-dominant 40 with one long dribble foray after another... The ball doesn't move as much because Lebron has it
But when MJ dropped 40, the ball still moved because he was off-ball.. So teammates were still assisting him and the ball was moving.. MJ was a closer of possessions in this way, but he was also elite as a ball-dominator too - he was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with any teammate or system.
Accordingly, dominating the ball means live dribbling, not shot attempts (usage).. Usage measures shot attempts, not ball-dominance... so klay Thompson could have high usage if he simply shot a lot (of course the ball would be moving so the brand of ball and fits would still be good...
Imagine if Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson took 30 shots
That's what MJ did
He was an OFF-guard that played off-ball and rarely dominated the ball with live dribbles like Lebron does.
When Lebron drops 40, it's a ball-dominant 40 with one long dribble foray after another... The ball doesn't move as much because Lebron has it
But when MJ dropped 40, the ball still moved because he was off-ball.. So teammates were still assisting him and the ball was moving.. MJ was a closer of possessions in this w
Doesn't Lebron also average a full 2 assists per game more than Jordan (over many more games)?
Sounds quite a lot like he was willing to give the ball up rather than dominate it, more than Jordan.
MJ is the GOAT, but I won't stand for the Dennis Rodman slander itt
It's a good sign that he was able to lead a variety of different casts to a championship. Jordan really led the same team 6 times. Both did amazing with what they had.
If Kawhi could lead the clippers to a title, he could also have a finals mvp for 3 different teams. It's a rare feat, and it represents something. Jordan isn't knocked for not doing it though, he did something different.
winning 4 rings with the team that drafted him.
Like what would be more impressive, the 4 rings that LeBron has, or if he had 4peated with the Heat but won no other titles?
To me it’s 4 peat clearly ?
How many team did a 4 peat ?
Twice , arguably 2 players in top 5 and other 2 in top 10 players of all time couldn’t do it ….and the goat couldn’t either (thx idiot Jerry Krause) .
It shows a better peak and stronger domination.
IMO .
But I mean, if you don’t think it’s cool to be able to go three different franchises and win, well I don’t know what to say. Three places, three fanbases, three sets of media, three front offices, lots of different coaches, three completely different casts and titles in each spot. It’s objectively awesome imo!
It’s kind of the same argument has Lebron been the best young player joining the nba , ignoring the fact that many great just couldn’t be admitted to play at his age .
Changing so many times and able to team up with other friendly stars was not something that existed before either .
Ps: I stand by my POV Luka is better then Lebron in the young age nba player argument .
Mj changing team after many failure pre 90 leaves and join Hakeem for example ?
U think don’t win ?
After he comes back join Utah and comes back again in 2000 join spurs or lakers ?
IMO harder to build a dynasty then just switch team to win rings .
Look at KD .
Imagine if Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson took 30 shots
That's what MJ did
He was an OFF-guard that played off-ball and rarely dominated the ball with live dribbles like Lebron does.
When Lebron drops 40, it's a ball-dominant 40 with one long dribble foray after another... The ball doesn't move as much because Lebron has it
But when MJ dropped 40, the ball still moved because he was off-ball.. So teammates were still assisting him and the ball was moving.. MJ was a closer of possessions in this w
Since you didn't watch today's game, I want you to enjoy these Michael Jordan highlights:
Spoiler
