LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

AD shot 13/17, yet somehow he's to blame for LeBron not getting enough assists 🙄

That’s 1 year .

Both mj and lebron had situations where winning was almost impossible .

If you watched the actual game AD missed two absolute bunnies on LeBron potential assists.

Not on the level of Jokic / Luka / Bron.

Assists per game

Stockton......... 10.5
Lebron.............. 7.4
Jordan............... 5.3

High APG (ball-dominance) is negatively correlated with winning..

Jordan tried the point guard style for the 1st time at 26 years old and was instantly the best PG in the league - piece of cake - however winning basketball required much more including expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates, aka off-ball... This yields the best brand of ball so the team can win via chemistry as opposed to exhorbitant talent/"more help"

We'll see... if Wemby becomes a better AD that's still not enough to hit GOAT levels.

Wrong again.

2023 Joker 10 assists per game -> champion

Another thing LeBron is much better at Jordan than, which is passing.

Now do Magic, Cousy, and Isaiah.

[QUOTE=All-inMcLovin;58534675

fallguy is not even grasping at straws at this point, his entire drink is split all over the table while he fumbles with his keyboard.

MJ shot poorly on high volume vs the Sonics in the Finals didn't he!?

[/QUOTE]

Regular line only.

There are no examples of MJ shooting below today's standard when he had today's volumes, and this includes seasons or series from the regular line..

Regular line is all that matters because we're measuring how MJ would do in today's game, which uses the regular line - the "long two" distance of the shortened line is irrelevant and that's why you don't hear me ever reference Jordan's better volume or efficiency from that distance during the "shortened line" years. I've only ever referenced the his regular line percentages and always state this as well.

Btw, it shouldn't surprise anyone that defense extends to "long two" distance in the playoffs, which would explain Jordan shooting 43% from the shortened line in the regular season but inexplicably bad in the playoffs (worst of career) - ultimately, everyone shoots poorly on long 2's.

[QUOTE=All-inMcLovin;58534675

fallguy is not even grasping at straws at this point, his entire drink is split all over the table while he fumbles with his keyboard.

MJ shot poorly on high volume vs the Sonics in the Finals didn't he!?

[/Quote]

True shooting in the Finals

96' BULLS.................. 50.9
96' JORDAN............... 53.8

13' HEAT..................... 54.5
13' LEBRON............... 52.9

The Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (zero plus/minus and negative net rating for Lebron in the series)

Btw, Pippen had 42.9 TS in the 96' Finals and 46.9 in the 93' Finals (0% on threes)..

With Pippen at 15.7 on 34% for the 96' Finals, this was an example of Jordan beating a top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring &: efficiency from a sidekick (carry-job vs top; team), which Lebron has never done.. Furthermore, Jordan defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has also never accomplished.
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It's really peak TWOG to constantly try to argue that Jordan turning into peak Westbrook for a few games in 1989 makes him a better passer than LeBron ****ing James.

Of course, this is exactly what you would expect from angry oldheads who don't watch basketball yet continue to have an opinion on it. Watching 1 game of LeBron James would tell an unbiased observer that he makes passes that Jordan simply wasn't capable of.

Fallguy check mated himself here so hard. He so furiously believes that iso scoring is the best way to win (Jordan) that he concocted an argument that high assists was negatively correlated with winning.

Completely ignoring Magic with the highest apg in history winning 5 championships with 3 FMVP.

Jordan worship.

Inevitability.

LeBron's highest assist season, the one where he led the NBA in assists? Finals MVP.

Of course TWOG logic is that Anthony Davis "carried" LeBron because sort by ppg. What a joke.

You musn't fall into the trap of thinking that a future GOAT has to be better than LeBron James at everything, including playmaking. LeBron isn't better than Jordan at everything either.

There can be different paths to greatness. This is the trap Jordan worshippers fall into. They see Jordan as the platonic ideal of basketball GOATness, and won't admit that anyone will ever be better unless they go 7-0 in the finals while winning the scoring title every year. To them, doing anything differently is disqualifying.

So don't fall into the same trap of thinking that the future GOAT has to look like LeBron, but better.

That's blasphemous.. Jordan shot 10 percentage points better than Westbrook with HALF the turnovers (goat IQ), plus a million other intangibles and factors including height, post ability, goat jumpshooting, leadership and DEFENSE.

So you're crazy.

Media and players said that Jordan was already better than Magic, Isiah and Stockton after just a few games at the position in 1989 - google "Jordan best PG ever" it and this info will pop up instantly..

30/10/10 with great efficiency and low turnovers (not Westbrook).. This was 30 years before the 30/10/10 era and format.

I didn't say it makes Jordan a better passer but it confirms that he was all-time level at the point guard skillset (Lebron's skillset), while Lebron lacks this versatility because he isn't all-time off-ball (jumpshooting).

Ultimately, when Jordan was instantly the best PG in 89' after just a few games at the position, it showed goat natural talent for the game of basketball.

Btw, Jordan is also the only player ever to average 10 assists in a playoff series without being his team's points guard or primary ball-handler (91' Finals).

Jordan being the best "point guard" in 1989 is more indicative of how the game has evolved in the last 35 years.

Back in 1989, a good prototypical point guard was Mark Jackson. Someone who dribbled the ball up the court, looked to find teammates, and didn't really try to score for himself. This was considered "good" back then. If you were a GOOD SCORER in 1989 you played shooting guard, point guard was for passers only.

Fast forward to 2024, when all players are more capable scorers and shooters, and the point guard is the best player and number 1 option on many teams (Luka, SGA, Jalen Brunson, etc...). All of these players would have been shooting guards in 1989. Nowadays, point guard is the superior position and you only play shooting guard if you can't pass. Everyone is expected to score.

So Jordan instantly becoming the "best point guard" in 1989 isn't the flex you think it is. The position was trash overall.

We don't need to because we have Westbrook, Luka, Harden, Nash, CP3 and many more.

History shows that high APG almost never wins and it needs exhorbitant help.

Specifically, Cousy had 3 titles where he averaged 8-9 assists and 1 for Isiah or Lebron, while Magic was a massive underachiever - his 5-4 Finals record means that Lebron/Magic are 9-10 on the Finals level - if they can't be winners with ball-dominance than no one can.. It's just a losing brand of ball that needs the most help ever (and still mostly loses).

The casts tell the story - ball-dominators need Kareem, Russell, AD, and Wade, while jumpshooters needed Klay, Pippen, and Pau... That's a massive gap in help needed.. ball-dominators need goats like Kareem and Russell, while jumpshooters need Wiggins or Pippen... It should be intuitive that "passers" need all-time scorers and producers to pass to - this includes Kareem, Wade, AD and Kyrie, plus franchise players at 3rd option as well.

Since the point guard skillset needs so much help, it's inferior to other skillsets like fundamental bigs or jumpshooters that win more with less... Every playground king is a ball-dominator and if you give a baby a basketball they immediately start pounding it (dominating the ball) - it's simply the easiest most beginner way to play the game and the best players ever evolved past this stage.
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There were no 30/10/10 players in the 70's or 80's, so Jordan was like today's modern player like Luka or Lebron being dropped into 1989... Jordan was still only.500 during that stretch (which is good with that cast) but the outlook and team ceiling was lower with Jordan getting 30 in a ball-dominant capacity than in a ball movement and jumpshooting capacity (system basketball, aka triangle)

FACTS also:

You don't even have to go back a full year for this to be false. Jokic did it twice last year.

But there's levels to greatness and only Jordan achieved the highest level that includes the longest stretch of goat winning and goat individual dominance simultaneously.. It's the goat standard.. He also had the least help of anyone that reached an "unbeatable" or "dynasty" level of winning.

Otoh, Lebron hasn't reached goat winning, while the stats and accolades show that he didn't reach Jordan's dominance either, on either end of the floor, while also needing a lot more help.

Jokic is literally the only other example, which is why I forgot about him

Only Jordan and Jokic did it and Jordan was the only guy for a long time (30 years)..

That's why I say that Jordan is more of a point-center than Lebron because Jordan plays more like Jokic (post, high post, etc) but he can also play Luka/Lebron-ball too

Yeah Jordan had so little "help" that his "help" won 55 games without him and Scottie Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting in his lone year as number 1 option.

Don't waste people's time with this garbage.

You act like Pippen could build a 50-win team from scratch - what would the bulls become if MJ didn't exist in 1989? How many titles?..

So cut the crap - MJ toiled away and built the team, while Pippen was handed the most well-oiled machine ever and it died in less than 18 months - the Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned..

Most importantly, opponents didn't circle their calendar or plan what they would tell grandkids - no one gave a sh** about playing the 94' Bulls - seeing the Bulls team on the other end of the court without the goat was a huge letdown and the Bulls flew under the radar all year.. But the cat was out of the bag in 95' and the "real" Bulls without MJ were headed for a lottery future until MJ restored 3-peat caliber.