LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

we have a new CO-MVP!

We could use some intelligent MJ arguments tbh, welcome.

Donald Trump became president, Americans love gigantic *******s. Jordan was able to mask how much of a degenerate ******* he was by winning, it was pre-internet level media also helped.

I'm trying to imagine how high I'd have to be to believe this crap.

Yea wow. I knew about the pattern/correlation stuff for BPM in general but kinda just assumed the dPBM/oBPM was more a split on which stat was contributing. Thinking about it for longer than 5s, obviously what you're saying makes sense. But yea, seems awful

I thought this was consensus. Are there really people who think Kobe was better at basketball than Shaq?

Trash is uncalled for. Magic, Stockton, KJ, Isiah, Price, Jackson. Not saying they were as a great a group as we've seen in primary ball handlers in recent years. But trash is way off.

55 wins in 1994 and lost to the peak Knicks in seven. Grant/Kukoc/BJ is hardly a superteam.

I think MJ is the GOAT, but slandering Pippen in the process is bullshit.

50% of casuals seem to think Kobe is 2nd only to Jordan. Facebook NBA discussions are full of people who have him at #2 all time.

But my point was that the only thing Shaq was better at then Kobe was 'being big' so while his effect on the game was greater, nobody will ever say 'Shaq!' as they throw a piece of garbage at the bin. And so Kareem and Russell and Chamberlain same thing, their effect on winning games was probably greater than Jordan or LeBron, but I don't think in general people want the basketball goat to be someone whose greatest asset is being 7 feet tall. It's so unrelatable to 99.99% of the fans. And generally a lot less exciting to watch.

shaq was amazing to watch. proof: lets watch him bully some college kids

and mj would average 70/30/20/10/5 today (at age 61)

Pippen didn't play in the closeout Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Jordan just needed about 10 points from Pippen to win that game, or Game 7 the following year in 1990.

And when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's what he got from Pippen - about 10 points in many games or 15.7 on 40% in the 96' or 98' Finals.... 19 on 42% for his Finals career.

People are just results-oriented by thinking Pippen must have been good to win 6 titles but in reality he was just providing the 10 points that he didn't provide in 89' or 90'... or thereabouts.. Pippen averaged 16/7/5 on bad efficiency for his career, but 6 chips inflates him to all-time status

Maybe in LA?

Let me try to explain how the historical record proves Pippen was trash.

Pippen didn't play in the closeout Game 6 of the 89' ECF and Jordan just needed about 10 points from Pippen to win that game, or Game 7 the following year in 1990.

And when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's what he got from Pippen - about 10 points in many games or 15.7 on 40% in the 96' or 98' Finals.... 19 on 42% for his Finals career.

People are just results-oriented by thinking Pippen must have been good to win 6 titles but in reality he was just providing the 10 points that he didn't provide in 89' or 90'... or thereabouts.. Pippen averaged 16/7/5 on bad efficiency for his career, but 6 chips inflates him to all-time status.. Pippen literally never played above a Larry Nance or peak Igoudala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflates him to all-status.

ur ppg-oriented

this isn't baseball

Jordan is a better Iverson, with a whole elite defensive team catered to his chucking.

That's why they won an amazing amount of games once he went away, they just slotted Scottie into the same role.

Scottie was a cross between Draymond and Grant Hill. An awesome player, to those that can actually understand basketball. A number five pick is a pretty elite prospect, obviously.

Everyone needs a 2nd scoring option

Without it, you're a 1-man team

Again, when Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF or Game 7 in 1990, Jordan only needed about 10 points from Pippen to win either game and make the Finals - that would be a 100% carry-job and when Jordan finally started winning, the 10 points is what Pippen provided in many critical games, or 16 on 40% in many big series or Finals.

So Pippen was never a juggernaut that provided big production but the winning spotlight and ring count inflates his garbage production to all-time status.

You say that PPG isn't important, but it's the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, except the GOAT... only the GOAT carried the most important category for more than 2 chips (6 chips)...

Role players rebound and pass - stars score.. However, Jordan led the Bulls in assists most runs and got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year, so the "sort by PPG" critique fails just based on that - Jordan played goat offense and defense simultaneously, while being the only elite playmaker on the team.

I mean, how great of a prospect do you have to be to be picked #5 out of Central Arkansas!

Somebody needs to give Krause his flowers on that one.

Awesome for sure but a strange lack of team success for such utter dominance in the paint. Compared to the other super dominant college centers -- Alcindor, Walton, Russell, Olajuwon, Chamberlain, Ewing, Sampson, Gilmore, Hayes, who else?? -- his teams really struggled. Double digit losses every year and I think 2-3 in the NCAA Tourney.

He had some other serious talent on his teams. Maybe the 3-pt shot affecting the game as compared to all those other guys? Dale Brown effect? Same thing seemed to be happening in the pros until he got with Phil and Kobe. Some kind of Chamberlain or Nolan Ryan effect? He slipped major about age 30. Hmm. Wow only one MVP? Seems weird.

Well those highlights are impressive but something was missing. It seemed more like a Globetrotter show, somewhat comparable to Pistol Pete before him in that respect.

Kobe #2 is a very popular casual opinion, even before he died.

It's not just an LA thing.

Lebron's ball-dominance and turnovers are more like Iverson than Jordan, who also shot 10 percentage points better than Iverson and had better efficiency per possession than Lebron - imagine Lebron using more possessions at higher efficiency - aka doing more - that was MJ.

And the Bulls had weaker defenses than the 91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers and 93' Knicks - that's most of their ECF and Finals opponents.. The Bulls had zero rim protection in a big man league and the least athletic guards in the league, so the idea that Jordan had great defensive help is false - you have no clue what you're talking about and simply regurgitating Klutch propaganda

And Jordan lifted a ; borderline .500 team in 95' to 3-peat in his first full seasons back.. No one cared about playing the Bulls in 94' - they went from 3-peat to 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in 95'.. Complete garbage without MJ.. If MJ never came back, they would be lottery in 96' instead of goat team - pretty big difference

If you think LeBron's game is more like Iverson than Jordan's was then that alone is another huge indictment of your basketball acumen

omg, k

This is a pretty good post from RealGM on how Lebron would be a better offball player than MJ, even though he didn't get to play that way as much:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...

[QUOTE=MyUniBroDavis]You don’t understand Xs and Os sadly

What makes Lebron better off ball is you can conceptually do a lot more with him if you lean into that, Jordan did end up doing more off ball throughout their careers in the roles and offenses they played in, but that’s not the same thing as who was better off ball.

First of all, generally speaking the type of empty side clear out cuts (I forgot the name ngl) to create get overhyped as some sort of massive brained play, as well as cuts to draw help defenders, alot of those are built in or dependent on how a team functions. We saw in 2021 and 2022 the Lakers were stupid stagnant in their post offense, in terms of cutting off of both stunts and baseline hep, whereas in 2023 and 2024 they’ve id when to cut and when to flash or set pin in flares (digging vs baseline help) and you see the post data for AD suddenly looks alot better. Of those guys brons certainly the best cutter off of stunts to the point they can’t really do it off of him or they have to stunt and rotate high and give up the cut to someone else instead

And 45 stampede cut + lift people overhype the crap out of thinking it’s the pinnacle of bball intelligence lol, it’s really just how the offense decides to align for those opportunities and we’ve seen it with brin

There REALLY isn’t a comparison in terms of what they could do though

First of all, lebron is a better shooter off ball, because he can shoot the three. Yes, era matters there and it’s unfair to Jordan but in an absolute sense yeah this isn’t a close comparison, brons abour a 37-42% three point shooter throughout 2010-2023, he takes a lot of pullup jumpers in pick and roll and hits them at a respectable rate (relative to average players) that brings down his averages (35% off the dribble would be about 40% off the shoot probably)

Lebrons catch and shoot three point data per Synergy:

2010: 34.7%
2011: 39.3%
2012 34.7%
2013 42.1%
2014 42.5%
2015: 42%
2016 36.0%
2017 40%
2018 41.4%
2019 35.0%
2020 40.6%
2021 37.6%
2022 37.1%
2023 31.8%
2024 45.9%

In any case spot up shooting is much more not being bad than being an outlier unless ur a crazy outlier which neither of them are, I agree it’s unfair to say jordan didn’t shoot well from three therefore he’s worse because of era but arguing the other way around because bron doesn’t shoot catch and shoot midrange jump shots off of screens which has been largely phased out is equally unfair and it’s also a less valuable skill period if ur talking about midrange shots

As for being a lob threat:

Jordan was around 6ft4-6ft5 barefoot and his vertical from what I recall was measured at 45 inches in some UNC paper off an unlimited run ip and 41 inches with the ball. If you’ve ever played basketball you know that it’s not 1 to 1 with vertical and height, ur never gonna see a guard be a roll man lob threat consistently

That’s not a lob threat in a way that functionally matters at all in the context I was describing, which was as a roller. Lebron barely qualifies being 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40+ inch vert as well, and I’m taking about pre Lakers for sure (maybe even only up to Miami but not sure)

It’s mitigated a tad by the fact that lebron on the move with the ball is basically unstoppable, but that doesn’t mitigate it all that much in the context of why you want a lob threat in pick and roll vs aggressive coverages

There’s a much stronger argument that neither of them are in that context than Jordan being one as well. Jordan isn’t tall enough to be one, bron probably barely meets the mark but I get the argument he doesn’t in the context of what I said

The entirety of how he improved in 2023 outside of Lebron getting to be more physical rather than quick was them starting to get him the ball on the move more, in the playoffs he couldn’t do anything on ball at all

Offensive rebounding:

I mean neither are threats in the way that someone should consider an off ball player, (using raw rebounding % makes no sense when that number has changed lol). But regardless of a 0-1% change either way, lebron technically is a bigger threat just based on size since off ball offensive rebounding is probably more about in mismatch situations on certain switches (beyond that, offensive rebounding is just… offensive rebounding lol)

Quicker decision maker on the catch:
Being a quick decision maker off the catch isn’t equivalent to possessions resetting when they pass it out at times but this really isn’t comparable to the other advantages lol

Anyways, a 38 year old lebron currently averaging less touches a game than Brandon Ingram with less time of possession than Austin reaves, he’s averaging 26-8-7 on 67%TS and noticeably taking it easy till the fourth, and is a +17.4 on offense which ranks poorly overall because they can’t function without him (which is a bit from bad luck to be clear)

A 37 year old bron in the 18 game stretch where AD was hurt and we desperately were clinging to the playoffs, with no spacing, averages 80.6 touches a game (14th) , an average time of possession of 6.3 minutes (15th) , an average time of 4.66 seconds per touch (52nd). Those numbers aren’t quite as low as they were in Miami (2014 only) where people say off ball bron was somewhat of a thing but they’re close ish, especially considering who the team had around them and the raw volume of their offensice production. If I recall lebron was like a +17-18 on offense and we were top 5 in the games he played on that end

Wouldn’t call it off ball at first, the caveat is he was averaging 33.5/8/8 on great effeciency (62.5TS), so those rankings are insane considering the production

So what we have here is a VASTLY declined Lebron put his foot on the gas for 20 games and pretty consistently was a top 3 offensive player in a league with Jokic, Luka, Curry, in that stretch before injuries got him, and currently brons averaging a career high percentage inside the arc and his average career numbers despite sleepwalking untill the fourth quarter because he definately wants that clutch player of the year award unless 500k is on the line or it’s a marquee/revenge game matchup (anyone that doubts this has not seen the Lakers, lebron is currently leading the league in ppg in the fourth other than tyus Jones whose played 1 fourth quarter, averaging 32-8-8 per 36 on 70.8TS)

Now shooting off of screens is genuinely important, but not as much from the midrange nowadays

Jordan is good in the context of an elite normal player off ball whereas Lebron has much more unique value off ball which is the main thing here

Jordan doesnt open things up schematically for you to be more creative and diverse with what you can do for your offense or to make your actions more effective, he is an incredibly smart and skilled player off ball

Lebron, especially the younger versions of him that would be a lob threat that still shoot well off the catch, if you play into that absolutely does those things.

As cutters their values aren’t even remotely close, an issue with synergy tracking is some post ups are considered cuts and stampede cuts aren’t classified as cuts iirc, but not only is bron historically effecient off cuts for awhile now, but it’s one of those things where it’s a unique value vs other guys. With most players off cuts it’s cuz they’re so fast and smart with it but if you can wall up it’s fine, with bron it’s because he’s fast and huge so if you wall up he’ll go overpower you and he knows how to not foul in those situations, hes unstoppable on the move and it shows in those situations. This should be a non starter, lebrons shooting 80-90% on cuts throughout his career, his cutting has unique value because of the combination of size, finishing, speed, and playmaking. An argument for Jordan here is as much of a non starter as saying he’s better in transition

The synergy stat sheet that’s someone made for Jordan awhile back is a bit broke because turnovers weren’t accounted for, but iirc over 142 games jordan was at 68% inside the arc on cuts with a little more than one a game

That is both impressive and lower than any season bron has had since and including 2010, especially in recent years where brons relied on it and focused on it more he’s at hovering at around 80%, on a bit more volume as well per game (My mistake, one year they had a similar percentage where bron was at 67%, but bron had more volume)

As an off rolling big, its REALLY hard to name a guy that has basically all the skills you need vs every coverage, spot up shooting, short roll passing, punishing mismatches, lob threat. Throw in offensive rebounding there too but that’s not usually one I think of to beat coverages as much as a bonus but its valid. There are ways to mitigate lacking in some of those skills but that gets tied into the ball handler and coaching.

Lebron checks at least 3/4 boxes super comfortably, and as a lob threat he’s 6ft8.5 barefoot with a 40-45 inch vert, At least when he was younger, he’s a tad short for that but he’s an inch or two shorter than AD and dwight so he could still be one.

Jordan does not qualify as a lob threat in that situation and it doesn’t even make sense to care about him in that situation

A lot of Arguments for Jordan on here in the context of their off ball ability are focused on what occurred situationally in the situations they were in ans the systems they played in (which is valid), but the arguments that hes actually better just always end up being super vague and not actual descriptive which just sounds like waffling things out of thin air lol, throwing out super vague descriptions of what happens on the court m to make a point is barely step better than throwing out a narrative out there imo. In a concrete sense lebrons just so more of a potent tool off ball you can do more things with, feel that’s a given if you have schematic knowledge of the freedom a guy like bron gives you over a guy like Jordan

I see a better argument for Jordan on ball than off ball in terms of them as players, people don’t get how ridiculous younger versions of lebron would be as a rolling small ball big that’s still a huge lob threat, but obviously it goes without saying he’s more impactful on ball than off ball. There are less than 5 players in nba history that check all the boxes as an rolling big probably and he would be one of them. You don’t need to check all
The boxes but it gives you so much more versatility and reseliency against coverages, we saw the warriors pick and roll attack somewhat die this past postseason against a high drop since Dray isn’t a lob threat and switching hurt it at times too even at their best, Westbrook and AD had issues because neither of them could should and Westbrook wasn’t as fast as he used to be so things like north south ball screens and flipping the screen weren’t quite as dominant as they had been[/QUOTE]

The Bulls had no rim protection in a big man league and only the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat

They had worse defenses than every ECF and Finals opponent during the 1st three-peat except the Suns.

So the stats and facts are on my side and don't support what you're saying