LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
This is a pretty good post from RealGM on how Lebron would be a better offball player than MJ, even though he didn't get to play that way as much:
^^^ didn't read, but that's like me making a long-ass argument that Jordan could've averaged 7 blocks if he wanted.
Lebron had a point guard hold-time and assisted rate (not an assist target) for his entire career.
He spent 21 years as the primary ball-handler and got coaches fired if they went against this
but the reality is that he was actually a great off-ball player?
lmao... Lebron can't shoot!!!.. His jumpshot isn't anywhere near MJ or Kobe and he lacks great hoops instinct to play off teammates.. LeMechanical.... LeNotSmooth.... LeUngraceful... LeBrick!!!..
He's too bulky and clumsy to run off screens or guard guys like Klay off screens - he literally cannot play or defend off-guards (SG's).
I mean, how great of a prospect do you have to be to be picked #5 out of Central Arkansas!
Somebody needs to give Krause his flowers on that one.
This shouldn't be considered "help"
CAREER FINALS
Jordan..... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)
CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS
Jordan..... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%
Again, when Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF or Game 7 in 1900, Jordan only needed about 10 points from Pippen to win each game... And when Jordan started winning from 91-98', that's pretty much what Pippen gave him!!!.. Pedestrian production (see stats above).
There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option.
Every dynasty was an all-star team except Jordan's Bulls.
People are just results-oriented by inflating Pippen based on ring count instead of actual performance - he forced MJ to carry the team (see stats above) and achieve goat production rates (PER, BPM, VORP, WS, PPG).
I think fallguy is the one who needs defensive "help".
His arguments stink!
If you think LeBron's game is more like Iverson than Jordan's was then that alone is another huge indictment of your basketball acumen
Lebron is #1 all-time in turnovers and among the turnover leaders every year
That's Iverson-ball... Jordan was never a turnover machine - only Lebron and Iverson
In addition to turnovers, Lebron is a historic ball-dominator like Iverson that turns teammates into spot up shooters - he literally reduces their assists and increases their assisted rate/play-finishing.. Turning teammates into spot-up shooter kills young player development, fits and strategic capacity/coaching.. It's a horrible brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters (loses with preseason favorite, or fall to underdog).
^^ all that is Iverson and Lebron, not Jordan
You guys spout blatant Klutch Sports lies and propaganda
I debunk
Rinse repeat.. Anyone following this thread can see that and if you read my posts, you guys would see itvtoo and stop posting the same debunked lies and trash
fallguy,
have you ever thought that Jordan.. doesn't need defending?
Lebron cannot dominate as the roll man like Karl because it required all-time mid-range touch and assisted jumpshooting (lebron's biggest weaknesses).
Specifically, the stats for Karl Malone show that 408 of 780 field goal attempts (61%) were jumpshots in 1998.
All were from mid-range and Malone had a 78% assisted rate.. Lebron's assisted rate has never been above 50% and it's usually point guard level (around 30% or less) for his entire career.
Again, Lebron has employed a point guard hold-time and assisted rate for his entire career (point guard skillset), so this idea that most of his field goals could be assisted mid-range jumpers (so he could dominate as the roll-man) is absurd.
You guys are just making stuff up at this point because the stats and historical record aren't on your side.
Lebron will always have mechanical stone hands and never feathery jumpshooting touch so any analysis of his capabilities should have this understanding as a baseline to guide the analysis... This way there won't be wildly absurd conclusions like Lebron being capable of shooting mostly assisted mid-range jumpers
of course he does because everyone lies about his career to create this fake debate.. if they looked at the facts, they would see there's no comparison - one guy mostly loses with 2 star teammates while the other guy was unbeatable with 1
Lebron would be a better offball player than MJ,
even though he didn't get to play that way as much:
The stats for Karl Malone show that 408 of 780 made field goals (61%) were jumpshots in 1998... All jumpers were from mid-range and Malone had a 78% assisted rate.. Lebron has never taken mostly jumpers, let alone mid-range, while his assisted rate has never been above 50% and is usually point guard level (around 30% or less).
Again, Lebron has employed a point guard hold-time and assisted rate for his entire career (point guard skillset), so this idea that most of his field goals could be assisted mid-range jumpers (so he could dominate as the roll-man) is absurd.
You guys are just making stuff up at this point because the stats and historical record aren't on your side.
Lebron will always have mechanical stone hands - he'll never have a feathery jumpshooting touch so any analysis of his capabilities should have this understanding as a baseline to guide the analysis... This way there won't be wildly absurd conclusions like Lebron can dominate by shooting mostly assisted mid-range jumpers (roll man like Malone) - the dumbest and most delusional thing I've ever heard.
Ultimately, Lebron cannot score 36k as the roll man, so Lebron is built like Karl except with a PG skillset instead of big man skillset... Regardless, it's still just karl malone and inferior to MJ.
of course he does because everyone lies about his career.
Anyway, as the previous post showed, Lebron cannot score 36k as the roll man, so Lebron is built like Karl except with a PG skillset instead of big man skillset... Regardless, it's still just karl malone and inferior to MJ.
C'mon fallguy this isn't true. Not everyone. Stop it. Go outside, touch some grass. Enjoy nature. It's Spring.
So what I'm hearing is that someone who's built like Karl Malone, except better in every way... better passer, better ball-handler, way faster and more athletic, and way higher basketball IQ... is just Karl Malone still.
New dumbest thing ever said.
Karl Malone was a great player. He had a great mid-range jumpshot that made him perfect for pick and pop, but for a guy who's 6'9" and built like a tank his vertical was embarassingly bad and he played mostly below the rim. Barkley, despite being much shorter played more above the rim than Malone did, and rebounded much better too. Oh and Barkley wasn't a pedo rapist like Malone either.
So what I'm hearing is that someone who's built like Karl Malone, except better in every way... better passer, better ball-handler, way faster and more athletic, and way higher basketball IQ... is just Karl Malone still.
New dumbest thing ever said.
Karl Malone was a great player. He had a great mid-range jumpshot that made him perfect for pick and pop, but for a guy who's 6'9" and built like a tank his vertical was embarassingly bad and he played mostly below the rim. Barkley, despite being much
lebron, barkley, and malone are bulky, slow and unskilled compared to MJ.. Lebron makes basic plays look better because he's so big, while those plays are normal and pedestrian for guards like MJ or Kobe.. Lebron is stuck in beginner-ball and luka-ball, while MJ and Kobe advanced much further and learned to win without ball-domination.. it's funny that Lebron fans say that a guy who won 6 chips in the triangle is just another "iverson", when the "iverson" distinction should be reserved for the biggest ball-dominator and turnover machine in history (lebron).
btw, malone is better than lebron at big man skills, aka strength, rebounding, post dominance, turnover rate, 2-point jumpshooting, off-ball, chemistry and defense on big men - Lebron lacks the skill to fit with Stockton and most ball-handlers, while Malone possessed this skill (expert jumpshooting touch).
Most of Malone's shots were jumpers and assisted, while most of lebron's are layups and unassisted... Malone was also all-defense well into his 30's, while Lebron hasn't played good defense in 10 years.. btw, this idea that Lebron could just crash into the paint as the roll man in the 90's is false - the reason Malone had to take so many jumpers is because the paint was completely packed, so all good scorers were forced to shoot over defenses - the packed paints and lack of spacing is why today's ball-dominators would struggle back then (without teammates to space the floor for them).
So Lebron lacks the skill to score 36k as the roll man - he's built like Karl but has a point guard skillset instead of big man - regardless, it's still just Karl Malone and inferior to MJ.
I don't believe fallguy actually believes what he's posting now.
He's doing a great job at turning everyone who's not an MJ-diehard onto the LeBron side.
That's the one thing he's done well.
Lebron was never rotting in Cleveland - he simply wasn't good enough to win with more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls and better team defenses.
History shows that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen but played 3rd option for the 2010 Cavs, while the team had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls as well... And the Cavs had better defensive ranking in 2007 too, which was long before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so they always had tons of defensive help and more scoring options... Meanwhile, Mike Brown is a historic defensive coach.
Accordingly, Lebron needed to wait 1 more year because there was a 1-star organic chip up for grabs in 2011 that Dirk grabbed, but the Cavs would've had the long-standing chemistry and reputed defense to easily destroy Dirk and Jason Terry.. The heat were missing these things (defense, chemistry) but the Cavs had them in spades.
Btw, organic winners like Giannis, Jokic, Curry or MJ had "normal" casts with one secondary producer like Klay, Middleton, Pippen or Murray - why can't Lebron win with these kinds of "normal" casts instead of putting multiple opposing franchise players on his team?
2009 MO WILLIAMS........... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN....................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense
SO IT'S STATISTICAL FACT that the Cavs had better help on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite despite adding Jamsion/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team.
Don't be ashamed for Lebron because Jordan always won with what lebron couldn't:
09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'.............. 18 on 38%........ #3 team defense
89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs................. 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat................. 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.............. 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'.................. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs.............. 18 on 41%....... #1, #4, #9 defenses
^^^ Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time and with worse team defenses than Lebron had
TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help
Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like MJ and Curry give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
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History is on my side.
Lebron has a history of bad fits and inferior brand of ball compared to the teams he loses to (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Magic, Mavs)
Lebron's team was never considered the "smart" team, while the teams that beat him were considered the "smart" teams that "played the right way"... Never Lebron's teams.
There's a reason why the 09' Cavs won more games than Lebron's super-teams - it's because the 09' team had organic CHEMISTRY... Unfortunately, Lebron gave up on climbing the chemistry learning curve (organic) and opted for a talent-based approach, so every loss is blamed on needing more help.
Otoh, if MJ or Jokic loses, it's because they aren't goat and simply didn't develop a good enough team (chemistry-based winning), but when Lebron loses, it's because he didn't have enough help (talent-based winning).. Clearly, Lebron is the fraud amongst this group - the talent-based winner that never really learned how to win (chemistry, organic)..
Lebron never evolved out of AAU ball-dominance, so he never had a #1 offense in 21 years and routinely has inferior brand of ball to the top playoff opponents.. It's impossible for coaches to build a great brand of ball or ball movement (high assist teams) around his skillset.. 21 years confirms that frontcourt ball-dominance is the worst kind of ball-dominance - literally the worst brand of ball in history that produces lottery records on the championship level.
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History is on my side.
Lebron has a history of bad fits and inferior brand of ball compared to the teams he loses to (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Magic, Mavs)
Lebron's team was never considered the "smart" team, while the teams that beat him were considered the "smart" teams that "played the right way"... Never Lebron's teams.
There's a reason why the 09' Cavs won more games than Lebron's super-teams - it's because the 09' team had organic CHEMISTRY... Unfortunately, Lebron gave up on climbing the c
lol no. quite the opposite. somehow when Lebron loses in the finals it's worse than Jordan losing in the first round.
as for brand of basketball-
He was 2-3 against the spurs in the finals. the first time he dragged absolute horseshit to the finals and he split the other 4 series. How is that bc of the brand of basketball to split when they were both similarly talented teams?
Warriors- 1-3 in the finals. If you want to call having the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league on GS the better brand I guess I can't argue. Keep in mind the first time they lost Love and Irving played a combined 1 game in the finals and Mathew Delladova was out there getting 40 mins a game. The third time they lost Lebron left and the Cavs won 20 games the next season. Warriors brand is definitely better than that. Swap Lebron for Curry the first 2 series and Lebron for Durant or Curry the last 2 and Lebron is probably 4-0 with his terrible brand of basketball.
Nuggets- is this a serious thing? Nobody thinks Lebron is in his prime now. It's impressive he's playing at this level at this age but trying to compare 39 year old Lebron with prime Jokic is silly. This may shock you- 39 year old MJ is also worse than prime Jokic.
Mavericks-totally inexcusable to lose this series. By far the biggest knock on Lebron in his career. Deserves every ounce of criticism he gets for losing to them.
Bron is faster and more explosive than Malone... Not sure how much that impacts the game because both were already overly powerful - if a player came along that was more powerful than Lebron like say Giannis, does Giannis' greater "Shaq" game make him better than prime Lebron?? I don't think so.. I think it's the other skill aspects that put Lebron over Giannis (shooting, handle, passing) while the power thing is like meh.
I'm Malone's case, he took jumpers on 61% of his shots in 98' (56% in 97')... Lebron has never taken jumpers for the majority of his shots and has never had an assisted rate above 50%, let alone the 78% that Malone had as the roll man and jumpshooter.. I don't think most people realize how much jumpshooting it takes to dominate as the role man against the packed paints of previous eras.. You couldn't get all the way to the rim like today's format and jumpshooting over defenses was often the best option.
So I guess the point is that Lebron > Malone but not by as much as people think because Lebron can't do what Malone did... People think lebron could score 36k as the roll man AND score 40k as a primary ball-handler, but it's really just the latter.. And again, whether Karl has a big man skillset or a PG skillset , It's still just Karl Malone (inferior to MJ.. or Kobe).
Btw, Malone was all-defense and MVP well into his 30's, while Lebron wasn't.
Athletically, I'm superior... 100% quicker with plenty of hippities and Dr. J hands.
and in MY hood..........
bullies got bullied, while Shaq's sons were coddled by wealth and privilege.
in MY hood.....
crack was an epidemic that took down NBA guys like Jay Edwards, or gun trafficking nearly took down Zach, while his brother and other teammates of mine were gunned down (rip Roger, Rodney & Berry).
I remember my 15-under AAU team (recruited from all over Indiana) had Bonzi Wells and Courtney James, b
So is it fair to say that you were far more talented and skilled than Shaq's sons, but a complete moron who has zero basketball IQ and also a headcase with emotional issues, which led to scoring just 4 points in your college career despite your talent against far inferior competition?
That explains your thread contributions now, doesn't it?
50% of casuals seem to think Kobe is 2nd only to Jordan. Facebook NBA discussions are full of people who have him at #2 all time.
But my point was that the only thing Shaq was better at then Kobe was 'being big' so while his effect on the game was greater, nobody will ever say 'Shaq!' as they throw a piece of garbage at the bin. And so Kareem and Russell and Chamberlain same thing, their effect on winning games was probably greater than Jordan or LeBron, but I don't think in general people
I don't think Shaq and Wilt were really penalized the same way because of their flashy personality and scoring dominance. It's more guys like Kareem, Russell, Duncan, D-Rob, Hakeem and KG that are underappreciated.
Sure, I think normal-sized athletes are probably more popular than 7-footers all things equal but casuals overrating 1-on-1 scoring is a far better explanatory variable as to why MJ is idolized and Kobe is often overrated. KG and Hakeem are roughly in the MJ-tier when you look at the record critically, but no casual thinks they are even remotely close. Whereas a lot of older casuals have Wilt and Shaq in the GOAT conversation. There's not a lot separating these 5 players from the standpoint of helping win basketball games, but 2 of them happened to be far more valuable on the defense end. KG even played more like a guard than any of the other all-time great 7-footers, but might be the most underrated of them all.
Many time I hear mj suck because he lost in the first round .
Cant wait to see what will they say if Lebron lost in the first round this year ….
With a team far more better then mj ever had the luxury to play with when he lost in the first round …..
Ps: AND the 80s Celtic were a better a team but let’s slide that fact for now ….
