LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Believe his hot give is that Lebron isn't even top 10. Or maybe just squeezes in.

lol

I tend to think people overrate how they can predict longevity besides obvious cases (Westbrook, Cam Newton in the NFL guys like that) but couldn't Jokic just do what he is doing now for another 10 years? He relies on athleticism less than any great probably ever, teams can't even put guys who could wear him down or bang with him on the court anymore because they would get absolute lit up and carved up in every other aspect of the game so they aren't in the league so he takes a lot less pounding than centers from previous eras. He just BBQs a ton of guys that were built to play in a league that he was never supposed to emerge in. The center was extinct.

He's like Shaq but with potential longevity. Good luck stopping him with 220 pound centers that some of these teams are putting out there.

If he has another 7-8 years like his last 4 (in a league where it will be tougher to build better teams than teams with the best player with the new cap rules), he could really be in the conversation.

And obviously he doesn't get hurt either seems like (knock on wood until he does I guess, but the fact he plays such an effortless game helps his longevity compared to a battering ram like say Giannis or D Wade)

Couldn't he be like a rich mans 2011-2014 Tim Duncan until he's like 57 also?

Does he even want to play that long?

Would u please stop it …..
AD is miles ahead of Hamilton
Dangelo far better then Whitney
Reaves and hachimura bring much more then laettner .
Just stop .
Mj would never miss the playoffs with any team lebron had in LA …..
The wizard were probably even weaker then any bulls team mj ever had !

No i never said that .
I said u lose vs the champs in the first round or the final what does it change ?
U get get props being the goat just because you were lucky enough to never had face super team in the conference u played in o0 ? .

And yes getting blown out in the first round at 22 or 39 why would it be different ?
If your good enough and get props to be All-NBA in both ages , don’t come around after and crying ….but his old !
Wtf …
Ps: about russel, if u believe it’s just about nba title it’s fine , me I don’t think it’s just about that .
But it counts obv.

He has equity for sure. Just hard to get there. He needs a few more titles and finals MVPs and a couple more MVPs and then to keep going for a few more years after that. It's possible for sure, but projecting elite performance beyond 35 is a fool's errand generally.

The 2001 Wizards, in 1857 minutes MJ was not on the court, produced a -3.1 net rating. In 2089 minutes with MJ on, they produced a +0.1 net rating.

This year’s Lakers, in 1469 minutes without Lebron, produced a -5.7 net rating. In 2505 minutes with Lebron on, they produced a +4.1 net rating.

The above is not a narrative, opinion, etc. It is a fact that Lebron was both significantly more impactful in his minutes to the team, and that his team performed worse without him than MJ’s did.

fallguy,
What do you think of LeBron’s potential game clenching, go-ahead 3-pointer last night?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LdbzVMIlhC...

Been kind of quiet in here lately with LeBron and the Lakers in the playoffs. Sometimes I wonder if your “brand of ball” theory is right. I think the Lakers blew something like a 20 point lead last night and a 15 point lead in game 1. Any thoughts on that? What do you think of LeBron’s play style in general?

Those stats might not be narrative but they also don't remotely mean that the Wizards supporting cast was better either which was the original claim, cmon now. In fact the first half of your "it is a fact" statement isn't even necessarily true (though it does seem likely to me admittedly)

Is this someone who didn’t watch the game asking another person who didn’t watch the game their opinion on the game? Very pro MJ energy for this thread tbh.

Sorry what does this mean? If you didn’t watch the game I linked a clip of the play in question. I was wondering why no one had been discussing anything with the playoffs going on and all. If you don’t actually watch basketball everything starts to make a lot more sense actually.

My rankings have criteria and the primary criteria is needing the least help to have "unbeatable teams", aka dynasties.

Since the best expert jumpshooters needed the least help, they're superior to the best centers, who are superior to the best ball-dominators (the neediest skillset and lowest team ceiling/Finals records).. Accordingly,

1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. Curry 4. Bird 5. Russell 6. Wilt 7. Kareem 8. Duncan 9. Shaq 10. Magic 11. Lebron 12. Oscar

aka sort by a combination of least needy skillset and highest team ceilings/Finals record

Of course we know that KD has all the qualities of an expert jumpshooter, since he isn't needy (took Westbrick to the Finals while Lebron/AD missed the play-in), and he can yield virtually unbeatable teams - goat team ceilings/Finals record capability

However, KD's career was muddied by waiting 6 years to respond to Lebron's collusions, which caused his collusions to seem late/desperate (warriors) or 2nd pickings of old/injured players (harden, kyrie).... And now KD himself is just old.. None of this is his fault - Durant held off from colluding as long as he could but how many preseason favorites was he supposed to allow Lebron to hand-pick before doing anything?.. Six seems like 6 too many.

So we never got to see the best KD because he was saddled by Westbrook and then gave lebron a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Furthermore, his three-ball game is closer to the rim's than Curry - it's Curry's era-changing distance that makes him unique and puts him in the top 5 despite not having the bully-ball game of every other top 10 player.. I think when people occasionally say that Melo was a "better scorer" than KD - that's what they're talking about - that bully-ball game that KD has but not at the elite level of the top 10 players (Curry aside).

Btw, "needing the least help to win" means reaching dynasty-level with a "normal" roster, aka 1 franchise player and a secondary producer/non-franchise player at sidekick, aka Klay, Pippen, Pau - this 2-star format is the least help anyone needed to have "unbeatable" teams, while every other dynasty had 2 or 3 franchise players like Magic/Kareem/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Shaq/Kobe, or Lebron/Wade if you want to include them.. Of course Duncan had 3-star teams but otherwise normal rosters (1 franchise player).

Ultimately, there are a lot of arguments for various players to be #2 all-time... We know that Wilt has a great case to be up there with MJ because only Wilt and MJ played goat offense and defense simultaneously for their entire prime (about 10 years or so) - goat on both sides of their ball was their standard game, while everyone else in history fell drastically short on one end or both for big parts of their prime.

LOL 2. Kobe but needs the least help

Go on, son

4. Bird

loooooolllllll

Dude won on a team with like five Hall of Famers and a Hall of Fame coach

you just don't understand goat scoring diversity when you see it

Kobe had no weaknesses and was "that guy" regardless of format like the NBA or international game

in clutch-time, Kobe wasn't a turnover machine or afraid of FT's and jumpers like Lebron, so he wasn't boxed into an exploitable ball-dominant approach like Lebron - many opponents consistently beat prime Lebron in close contests throughout this career (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic) because he's boxed in like this (avoids FT's, jumpers while being the goat turnover machine).

That's just for starters... Kobe was an expert jumpshooter - only MJ and Kobe made 700 jumpshots in a season, which is nearly twice as many as lebron's best year with similar or better efg than Lebron's best year - again, that's twice as many jumpshots on similar or better efg than Lebron's best... Lebron lacks elite ability to get to a spot and elevate for a jumper - this is a massive hole in his game and takes him out of the goat skillset, aka jumpshooting/footwork/fundamentals like Dirk/MJ/Bird/Kobe/Jokic/MJ/Curry - this is a different class from ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron/Oscar/Luka/SGA - the latter uses ball-domination exclusively, while the former are elite ball-dominators but only use it as a small part of their more diverse repertoire.

Btw, the latest poll shows Jordan at 48 and Lebron at 42, while Kobe is at 9?.... Even Lebron fans don't think he's that much better than Kobe.. Kobe should have about 30% of the poll and Lebron 15% - Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and never climbed the chemistry learning curve (organic), so he never learned how to win (chemistry, organic) and only how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Who needed more help?

Shaq needed Penny, Kobe or Wade, and then lost with Lebron

while Kobe was unbeatable the INSTANT he got pau...

pau was a 1x all-star that Kobe turned into perennial all-nba - Pau was similar to many sidekicks like Dumars, Parker, Pippen, and Klay in that he didn't get All-NBA until after he won a title, so the winning spotlight inflates many sidekicks to media accolade and "all-time" status when they were otherwise nothing outside the winning "system".. of course they were never enough to support the system or have any system built around them either, like true 1st options do.

Of course Shaq was swept or massive upset loss in 95', 96', 97', 98', 99', 04', 10' and probably more.. shaq had bad brand of ball that didn't develop teammates or elite chemistry - he was the common thread in beefs with Penny, Kobe, or Wade.

Kobe carried Shaq in the 2001 WCF, which was the "real" Finals, so who cares about a series against the weak East where 1-star teams were routinely winning that conference.. Kobe was the MVP of the "real" Finals like the 00-02' WCF.. Kobe also set the record for clutch ppg in the 00' Playoffs and Finals.

fallguy - your walls of text have convinced me. i can't bring myself to read any of it, but anybody who posts that much text must know what's up. i believe you.

Lmao Kobe #2 when he was the second best player on his own team his first 3 rings.great stuff.

Kobe not being afraid to shoot late when he was double and triple teamed isn't the brag you think it is. Forcing up garbage isn't a plus.

I also love the takes that 1}Durant should have colluded earlier 2)LeBron should have rotted in Cleveland forever. Amazing pretzel logic.

Jumpshooting is your Kobe argument? That's the Steph argument, child.

There weren't leaks to Kobe's game. He was an all-time great, no joke. Top-12, definitely.

But there was actually one leak: height. He didn't make up for his height enough. He wasn't the scorer Jordan was, the passer LeBron was, the defender either of them were, the rebounder either of them were, the leader either of them were.

Kobe was slightly less than both. No knock on him, but there are probably five centers ahead of him by your peak logic that supports MJ as the GOAT.

Because there's no full career argument for LeBron over MJ, as I admit when I say that MJ is the GOAT.

Shaq 2000 Playoffs:
43.5 MPG
30.7/15.4/3.1
2.4 BPG

2001:
42.2
30.4/15.4/3.2
2.4

2002:
40.8
28.5/12.6/2.8
2.5

I'll wait for you to show me how Kobe carried this and not the other way around. Hell, I don't have to prove one or the other. I can just say they carried each other. The onus is on you to prove your insane claim that Kobe carried Shaq at that time.

Your logic is so disconnecting and -- again -- you disparage all-time greats to prove your points, making your whole shtick a joke.

Also, Pau >>>> Penny and I loved me some Penny as a kid

Penny kicks with the little swoosh in the corner were fire, my fav sneakers of all-time

In his entire career, Kobe finished in the top 2 of MVP voting......twice.

So in general, he consistently wasn't even considered a top 2 player in the league while he was playing.