QQ overpair vs gambler and father time
2/3, no 10 straddle on this hand.
Playing 7 handed.
V1 - asian reg who likes to gamble and play PLO. Hes waiting to get on PLO game. He's not a maniac, but loose and will bluff.
V2 - father time. This guy is crazy old, probably 90. I cant believe he is playing at 11:30 PM. He is of average live looseness and ive seen him get sticky a couple times and he is very passive, he has not raised his strong hands pre or postflop and has rarely bet himself.
Hero opens 15 from UTG+1 w red QQ.
V1 in SB, and V2 in BB call. Everyone else folds.
Flop 6d 4d 6c
V1 donks out for 25. Im cool with it, planning to call down and let him keep blasting.
Now V2 unexpectedly calls as well.
I did consider raising flop, but im not sure about V2, and there is a possibility V1 is just betting his trips right out.
Turn 8c
V1 continues for 75. V2 calls again.
Hero?
Don't love it but I don't think you can fold yet.
Yeah keep calling.
Maybe you call with nut flush draws and jj plus and you can fold TT minus and thus you have some calls and some folds
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What are the stack sizes?
V1 is betting turn very well to deny implied odds to a flush draw with these stacks. I'd be concerned he's already connected with this board via something like 86/65, etc...and is stringing you both along.
Still think we can't fold, although does a flop or turn raise/fold make sense to anyone?
I'd raise flop for protection. I'd jam turn since over half the deck is bad for you and you don't need 50% equity vs their range to jam.
Interested in results
w/a $10 straddle and $300 and $400 stacks im raising flop and jamming turn. you are like 40 bb deep you should be going broke here with an overpair.
It is sometimes straddled but the straddle was not on this hand. Does that change it for you or you still going with it?
sorry i read it wrong.
in this case then just call. i think doodoopoker's advice is more geared to online play. most live players, even LAGs, wont lead out here into multiple players with deepish stacks with an exponentially growing pot size with less than trips. typically even a LAG will be worried about someone else slowplaying, and if he had a draw/top pair or something like 99 he would bet the same amt as the flop (or slightly larger) or check. i doubt you have 50% equity. pot odds are good enough though to call and evaluate river action because there is sufficient doubt that you dont have the best hand, and you could hit a 2 outer and possibly stack both opponents.
against a huge river bet and call its an easy fold no matter what the river is. if the river goes large bet and V2 folds then its a tough spot.
And the reveal....
I played weaker than puppy piss and folded turn to the 75 bet from V1. I just thought theres no way one of them doesnt have trips here, most likely the old man.
River was another 4 and V1 bet 125 like I said and the old man comically threw his cards in the air, so I guess he probably had 75dd or something similar.
V1 shows 55 and i puked in my mouth.
I just gotta stop giving people credit for having a hand. Its my biggest sore spot right now.
I was actually super close to just saying I have no idea what this is and jamming turn. Maybe the old man would've called off w his draw.
I think call, call, call, wouldve been the best line though. Maybe raise flop isnt bad, but then youre just announcing you have an overpair. You can get value from flush draws but youre also piling money in when they do have the trips.
Forget the PLO player. How often do you have OMC beat? What's he calling with there? How often does he have 88, 99 vs jj, qq, kk, aa.
Sadly the maniac with OMC is a bad combo. Maniac bets and gets you out of a hand. OMC is often just trying to hit a draw that noboyd will pay or will fold to a scare card on the river.
The answer here is find a different table or start coaching people at the table to stop chasing draws against aggressive players.
V2 as described ("average live looseness, sticky, passive") sounds like he can have all sorts of weaker overpairs. Not sure why everyone is so terrified of him. I'd call flop; turn would be an easy bet if checked to. On a paired board with two flush draws the question on the turn is whether to raise (denying equity to flush draws but potentially scaring away the overpairs and sometimes running into trips) or calling with a tricky river decision if a third barrel comes in. You'd be concerned about any diamond, club and not thrilled with a 3 or 8
V2 as described ("average live looseness, sticky, passive") sounds like he can have all sorts of weaker overpairs. Not sure why everyone is so terrified of him. I'd call flop; turn would be an easy bet if checked to. On a paired board with two flush draws the question on the turn is whether to raise (denying equity to flush draws but potentially scaring away the overpairs and sometimes running into trips) or calling with a tricky river decision if a third barrel comes in. You'd be concerned abou
I think most people said call or raise. Yes the old man is not a OMC even though hes super old hes not nitty, but unfortunately in real time I was thinking by the turn bet he had the 6 but I shouldve given him smaller overpairs too. But of the 2 players I thought the PLO player was the one betting a draw and old man had a made hand. For what its worth i would have 100% bet if I was checked to on the turn as I dont expect either of these players to get tricky and check raise me ever.
2/3, no 10 straddle on this hand.
Playing 7 handed.
V1 - asian reg who likes to gamble and play PLO. Hes waiting to get on PLO game. He's not a maniac, but loose and will bluff.
V2 - father time. This guy is crazy old, probably 90. I cant believe he is playing at 11:30 PM. He is of average live looseness and ive seen him get sticky a couple times and he is very passive, he has not raised his strong hands pre or postflop and has rarely bet himself.
Hero opens 15 from UTG+1 w red QQ.
V1 in SB, and
Unusual spot on flop.
I'd be giving opponents a range that included diamond draws, 4X, and some middling over-pairs, like 77-99. I'd be discounting trips because I expect most of the player pool to play them as traps.
For some reason, even though I see people betting bottom pair, I overlook people possibly betting 33 or 55, and I'm shocked if it's 22, though at low stakes maybe I shouldn't be.
Depending on my reads, I might also assign some straight draws, like 75 or 53.
But I am never giving them credit for AA/KK.
I would think if V2 had a strong hand, he'd raise for protection, so I wouldn't be worried about him when he calls, unless I'd seen him really slow-play big PP's. I'd be giving him roughly the same range.
Against that sort of range, I think a raise is in order. If you raise and get 3B, it's an easy fold.
Something I've noticed about PLO players sitting at NLHE is that many of them seem to play every hand the opposite way a NLHE player would. They'll turn weak PP's into bluffs on boards that wouldn't seem to make sense, and slow play big PP's pre. They'll often bet with weak hands and smooth call with strong hands, but they'll rarely raise for value or protection on flop or turn. All their raises seem to be on the river, and generally pretty nutted.
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...Something I've noticed about PLO players sitting at NLHE is that many of them seem to play every hand the opposite way a NLHE player would. They'll turn weak PP's into bluffs on boards that wouldn't seem to make sense, and slow play big PP's pre. They'll often bet with weak hands and smooth call with strong hands, but they'll rarely raise for value or protection on flop or turn. All their raises seem to be on the river, and generally pretty nutted.
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PF equities in PLO are pretty close. It's hard to be a gigantic favorite. After the flop, a lot of the game is trying to get other players to dump their potentially considerable equity against your made hand or draw. Or trying to get the 2nd nuts to pay off against the 1st, as you note. Just from what I've observed, and read from posters here like Buzz (RIP).
Unusual spot on flop.
I'd be giving opponents a range that included diamond draws, 4X, and some middling over-pairs, like 77-99. I'd be discounting trips because I expect most of the player pool to play them as traps.
For some reason, even though I see people betting bottom pair, I overlook people possibly betting 33 or 55, and I'm shocked if it's 22, though at low stakes maybe I shouldn't be.
Depending on my reads, I might also assign some straight draws, like 75 or 53.
But I am never giving them
I had seen father time on several occasions just call with strong hands rather than raise, but I was definitely too quick to just assign him trips. I really butchered this hand.
I had seen father time on several occasions just call with strong hands rather than raise, but I was definitely too quick to just assign him trips. I really butchered this hand.
I think many of us tend to over-estimate the range of OMC's.
It gets easier to hand-read with them when it's multi-way and there are obvious draws on board. Like, if he had AA/KK or trips, he'd be raising, at least some of the time, not flat calling. I think he'd be flatting with 77-JJ, and some un-paired combos that are just strong enough to peel.
It seems like whenever an OMC is taking a passive line in spots like this, if they don't have some weird PP that could have been 3B, then it's always with JT, QJ, or something like that, just hoping to spike top pair on the turn. It would surprise me if he had 75 here, but if so, then that just goes to show how easy it is to over-estimate the OMC range.
It sucks to raise on a paired board and have to fold to a 3B, but if you think about it, most of the low stakes player pool is either going to slow-play trips by going for a check-raise, or donk lead for a larger size, to protect their hand. Betting 25 into 45 is sort of a "see where I'm at" value-bluff, hoping to fold out AK/AQ and maybe 77-99.
If V1 is a PLO player, he might not even come back over the top with a 3B, and might check to us on the turn.
I wouldn't put V1 on 55 exactly, but if we think he might have 77-99, it's basically the same hand. It's that "hard to make a pair" thinking in action.
He wasn't described as an OMC, he was said to be loose, passive, and a station. A true OMC is a tight nit who only plays premium hands and continues when he flops a monster.
Against this guy I would just call him down and not raise the flop since they're only calling with trips and folding things we beat which they would have continued to put more money in with.
