LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

How many MVPs and titles would it take for Jokic to become the GOAT? I imagine he'll be met with a lot of resistance, as his game is just not very appealing or marketable.

yeah he'd prob need ~5/5 for a lot of ppl to even consider him, but i doubt he'll end up with more than 2-3 rangz. will be interesting to see how many mvps he finishes with, should be on 4 rn, but they gave one to embuust bc he wouldn't stop whining for it

jokic doesn't give a **** about being goat. he prefers horses.

Letting voted-for awards affect your own opinion of the GOAT seems like a massive leak, and 'there's literally no amount' if you're talking about swaying the general public away from MJ

When it comes to being a GOAT, multiple MVPs and finals MVPs are pretty much a necessary qualification. Jordan's claim is largely based on his 6 finals MVPs (and well supported by 5 regular season MVPs).

A four-peat by Jokic would qualify him for GOAT

Jordan became goat when he achieved a substantive body of work that was clearly superior to anything Magic or Bird had done (3-peat) - that's when everyone said he was GOAT.

Similarly, a substantive body of work that is superior to anything Jordan did would qualify Jokic for GOAT, so a 4-peat would qualify just like a 3-peat qualified Jordan.

Btw, we're obviously talking post civil-rights and 3-pointer basketball here, aka modern era.. Otherwise, we have to start splitting hairs on how many Bruce Bowen rings someone has (5th option rings... "just a defender" rings).

#weouthere

Yep, perfect example

People are surmising what he would need to do in order to get into the conversation, so it isn’t all that confusing. He doesn’t need to hit 5 or 6, but he needs a couple more than what he has and many more years of this level of play.

This isn’t unreasonable or hard to understand. LeBron went to 9 finals in 10 seasons, so Jokic is still on the front half of the body of work he needs to put together imo.

First time in thread- apologies if this has already been addressed.

If you look at each individual season and take the major advanced metrics (PER, W/S, W/S p 48, VORP, BPM) and look at each players aggregate ranking league-wide in those metrics, Kareem has more seasons at #1 than any other player. All time Jordan has the second most, Lebron the third, Wilt is fourth, and Larry/Jokic are fifth. Other notable players such as Magic, Kobe, and Russell have 0 seasons leading the league. Shaq has one season which would put him in a muti-way tie somewhere around twentieth.

How much impact should these stats have when determining who the true GOAT is?

I said Wade was better when Kobe was past his prime in 2010 and thereafter

I very clearly said that in all the posts

And yes, it means literally nothing for Lebron to start making multiple Finals after teaming up with the next-best player in the league (Wade), or putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team - it's amazing that Lebron gets credit for winning the conference after that

Winning a conference means nothing compared to winning the league... especially a conference where the top 3 players were put on 1 team... So Finals appearances are simply not goat arguments compared winning the Finals.

Kareem, Lebron and others have 1 or 2 seasons of league-best individual production rates or mvp WHILE WINNING THE TITLE, while Jordan has 6 seasons of league-best individual & team dominance.. He's the only guy with a tenure of league-best individual and team dominance.

Accordingly, no one combined individual dominance with team success like Jordan... In addition to being the only player with a tenure of league-best individual & team dominance, Jordan was the only guy that won titles as scoring champ, except peak Shaq (00') and peak Kareem (71') - so their peak burden to win rings was Jordan's standard burden to win rings.

Furthermore, Jordan was the only player good enough carry the league's biggest burden while maintaining championship brand of ball (winning titles as usage leader - unprecedented).

Finally, Jordan is the only player that was forced to consistently defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Everyone else in history had teammates lead the team in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan averaged 10-30 mote than teammates in evety SERIES... So no one defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load) like MJ... Everyone needed great scoring help except the GOAT.

What's worse:

1-9 with lottery cast or 0-12 with prime AD?

1-9 with a cast like the 04' Cavs....

or 0-12 with prime AD and veteran cast?

I don't disagree with you, this isn't an argument against MJ, I also have him number one. Was simply just asking how much impact these advanced stats should have when determining how truly great a player was.

What you're saying is true and increases the magnitude MJ's peak 8 year window of dominance. I feel like this also, more than anything else, signifies the quality of their teammates. Both Kareem in the 70's and Lebron in the 2000's did not have championship caliber rosters in my opinion. I also don't have the stats in front of me, but I'd guess Wilt carried a similar, if not larger scoring load, and Lebron's scoring load was just as high when you factor in assists, which gives a more accurate overall impact on scoring. I'm sure defenses were equally as focused on stopping Lebron or Kareem as they were MJ.

Lastly, MJ did need great scoring help. He didn't win anything until Pippen became an all-star and 20ppg player. This isn't a criticism of MJ (again I have him one), every player in NBA history has needed great scoring/defensive help to win a championship.

The problem with that is pipe only have 4 season of 20ppgs with MJ winning and I’m very generous rounding those 19ppg .

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1994 2nd Round

Other stats must be used to gauge the quality of the stats you mentioned - things like winning, team offensive rank, team assists (ball movement), teammates playing near capacity (near career highs), good fits (no westbrook-lebron fits)... i.e.. people don't realize that bad fits = skill deficit, so good PER with bad fit and subsequent losing deflates the value of the PER or PPG..

In the case of Lebron/Westbrook, the skill deficit is lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates, aka off-ball - neither Westbrook or Lebron had these skills to fit with each other.. This isn't a one-off - Lebron reliance on ball-dominance (a lesser version of "luka-ball") has a long list of bad fits with other ball-handlers like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, and even Wade, IT, Clarkson and many more.

After they both made the 2005 all-star team, Lebron and Zydrunas acquired a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that.. The reason Lebron failed with Hughes is because it was a horrible fit just like Lebron-Westbrook... Hughes cratered alongside Lebron.

Of course it's bball 101 that bad fits = skill deficit.... i.e. spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.

This need for shooters to have good fits and also to provide spacing for drives is a weakness of ball-handlers.. In contrast, expert jumpshooters like Curry and MJ fit great with other ball-handlers while also needing less spacing since they can shoot over defenses as a standard.

Ultimately, the primary reason for Curry and MJ's superior chemistry and winning is because they were elite on-ball AND off-ball, so they fit with any player or system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, which limits chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching (and therefore winning & team ceiling/Finals record).. We've seen this now for 21 years when we look back on Lebron's career (now effectively finished)... Hindsight is always 20/20.

Jamison is a rare 20k scorer and outplayed Lebron in the 2007 1st Round by averaging 32/10 on 55%... So he's a far superior scorer to Pippen, yet Lebron had him at 3rd option in 2010... So the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And the Cavs had better defenses back in 2007 too, which was long before Lebron became an all-defensive player, so the Cavs always had more defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

fyi - the Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was worse than every ECF and Finals opponent (91' Lakers, 91' Pistons, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks), except the 93' Suns.. Meanwhile, the 09' and 10' Cavs had the #3 and #7 defenses, so they had better defenses and more scoring options.

Finals career

Lebron'......... 28 on 49%
Kyrie............. 28 on 47%
AD................. 25 on 55%
Wade............ 24 on 47%

Jordan........... 34 on 48%
Pippen.......... 19 on 42%

^^^ someone doesn't belong

Lebron had far more scoring help, so he didn't have to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).

Everyone in history had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention - only MJ faced max defensive attention for his entire career (carried scoring load).

In the 93' Finals, both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG, so every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed... The fact that Pippen averaged 20 on horrific efficiency means nothing - it's horrible scoring help when the 1st option must average 41 and defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Btw, we know that Pippen couldn't handle additional load in that series because he shot 46.9 true shooting.

Furthermore, Jordan won with Pippen getting 20, but he also won with Pippen getting much less than 20 on worst-ever efficiency too (see chart above).. People forget that MJ nearly beat the Bad Boys in 1989 but Pippen missed Game 6 and only had 7 points in Game 5.. He essentially missed Games 5 and 6 in 89', and then missed Game 7 in 1990 with the infamous "migraine"... If Pippen had provided 10 points in these games, MJ would've beaten the Bad Boys in 89' and 90' with essentially no help - and when MJ finally started winning from 91-98', that's basically what he was getting from Pippen - the bare minimum such as 15.7 on 34% in the 96' and 98' Finals, or 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, or worst-ever efficiency in the 93' Playoffs & Finals, and also the 96-98' Playoffs & Finals - Pippen was a historic bricklayer and lane-clogger as the picture shows above.

In addition to historic bricklaying and lane-clogging, Pippen had worst-ever 4th quarter and clutch stats, while also having zero big shots in his entire career.. Infact, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring for the entire 98' Playoffs - he led Pippen in 4th quarter scoring, while also starting over Rodman at PF... (Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs).

Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. Accordingly, only MJ was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)... He did so for every title run, and also every regular season, playoff series and Finals of his career.... Jordan was forced to carry the scoring load because 20 ppg is a low peak capability for a sidekick, which is why Shaq said Pippen wasn't on the scouting report (system player).. Other sidekicks led the team in scoring for playoff runs and took defensive attention away from the 1st option (they dominated), while Pippen never did.

Regarding MJ and Lebron specifically, Lebron never carried weak help over top teams like MJ did, such as losing with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams - this is just one example but Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while MJ did all the time.. So MJ routinely beat top teams with weak help, while Lebron never did.

Kareem was lottery for many years while being MVP, so we aren't even talking about championship rosters with him - just make the damn playoffs.

Regarding Lebron, nearly every top 20 all-time player had an organic juggernaut by Year 7 such as Curry, Giannis, Jokic, MJ and Lebron - these guys achieved league favorite status with normal or "organic" casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick..

The difference is that Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - he achieved a greater roster than the 1 franchise player model roster by teaming up with multiple franchise players to achieve a "super-team" (3 franchise players on 1 team).. Yet he still mostly lost with each cast that he had - he never proved that he could have a dominant team that mostly won each year, regardless of what cast he's given, aka objectively inferior to MJ (6/6) and many others that achieved dominant teams.

But MJ stands alone because he was unbeatable the instant he got 1 star teammate (6 titles in 7 years), while Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates (3 titles in 7 years from 11-17').. MJ is essentially punished for winning with the first all-star he ever received and never needing another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates and still won much less than MJ.

When Pippen finally took over the reigns of the most well-oiled machine ever in 1994, he averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round (stats in picture above).

The reality is that opponents no longer circled their calendars or planned what they would tell grandkids before playing the Bulls in 94' - no one gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT and it was a huge letdown for opponents.. But once the cat was out of the bag and opponents woke up, the "real" Bulls without MJ embarrassed themselves in the 94' Playoffs and were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber in his first full season back..

If MJ never returned, the 3-peat Bulls would've fallen to lottery in 95' or 96', so Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, as we saw in 95' with the Bulls.. He was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever, so he isn't a true franchise player that can build a 50-win team from scratch - i.e. imagine removing MJ and "the shot" from the 89' Bulls team and seeing if they become champs by 91'.. So Pippen can't build a team from scratch and he can't have a real 50-win team that can win 50 every year as saw in 95' - Pippen simply isn't a franchise player.

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron until Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone starting in 2015 onwards:

Playoffs

85-93' Jordan............. 35/7/7 (6.6 apg)
06-14' Lebron............ 28/8/6 (6.4 apg)

In addition to passing less than Jordan for the first half of his chips, Lebron wasn't required to be a good defender for the latter half of his chips (no all-defense in his 30's).

Rings count for something obviously, just not everything. If LeBron had none he couldn't really be in the discussion. 4 rings with 4 finals MVPs and 4 regular season MVPs is plenty enough.

He played in a different era and against different team and with different teams. And during the period of his career, he has the most MVPs, and most finals MVPs. Anybody who puts Curry and Kobe above him is obviously a fool.

Larry Hughes has 1 season where he wasn't awful but that's the only one twog considers

Don't you love TWOG's eagerness when he sees a new poster, he can finally copy and paste his giant walls of texts that no one else reads.

It's clear that Hughes was coming into his own at 26 years old with 2 good seasons alongside an expert jumpshooter (Arenas).. this is the same age that Pippen showed improvement and came into his own alongside Jordan.

But then Hughes cratered alongside Lebron just like Westbrook, Ingram, and other spotty-shooting ball-handlers.

The previous poster posted about PER, VORP and other stats, so I was responding to him using those same stats - the stats showed that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas acquired a player that was better than 1990 pippen (on both sides of the ball) before entering their first playoffs in 2006!!!... So Lebron's first playoff teams were 3rd-year teams and veteran high seeds, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing and no coaching... Yet people want to compare Jordan's 1-9 teams with Lebron's veteran high seeds from 06-10'... of course, Lebron is now 0-12 with AD vs Jokic, which is far worse than MJ being 1-9 with no cast.

Rounded either way to the nearest whole number, Pip's averaged in first 3 seasons respectably, 8, 14 and 17.

In the six seasons the Bulls won rings, Pip averaged 18, 21, 19, 19, 20, 19. His average in those 6 years combined was 19.35 ppg. I don't think it's that "generous" or a "problem" to classify him a 20 points per game scorer for those six years. Regardless my original point stands, MJ didn't win anything until Pippen became an all-star and a 20ppg (19.35ppg) player. This isn't a criticism of MJ (again I have him one all time), every player in NBA history has needed great scoring/defensive help to win a championship.

Ultimately, MJ was unbeatable with 1 other star, while Lebron was extremely beatable and mostly lost with 2 stars.

I don't know how Lebron fans overcome that..

Lebron mostly lost with every cast and never showed that he could be unbeatable with any cast.. "Unbeatable" means a stretch of mostly winning with a given cast (aka 3 chips in 4 years or something like that).. Obviously, Jordan took this to the extreme by not losing more than 2 straight games for 9 straight years the INSTANT he got 1 all-star (90-98') and winning 2 three-peats (6 chips in 7 years for MJ).

Again, I don't see how Lebron fans overcome this obvious chasm in winning ability... This includes the aforementioned historical record, but also the obvious eye test of chemistry/fits and ability to elevate teammates.. It's intuitive that 21 years of Lebron's teammates playing poorly means that Lebron is the problem and the constant factor, not the ever-changing teammates..

So there's the issue of winning ability (chemistry and elevating teammates), while also having the sheer individual statistical or accolade dominance - MJ had superior MVP count and all-defensive caliber throughout a 10-year period (88-98), compared to Lebron's brief 5-year period of winning either MVP's or all-defense (09-14') - he was only an MVP or all-defensive caliber for 5 years... So Lebron has less individual performance while also lacking a record of goat winning and winning ability (chemistry and teammate elevation).

19.35 on bad efficiency isn't good scoring help and it's extremely low peak capability that put all the defensive attention on MJ... Opponents didn't gameplan for Pippen's transition or flow points (system player) and they could sag off and clog the lane... Every other notable 1st option in the 90's had much more help than that, such as a sidekick that could carry the team to the Finals.

For example, show me where Pippen carried his team to the Finals by averaging 26/4/8 with 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) because that's what Terry Porter did in the 92' WCF - he led the Blazers to the Finals and dominated those playoffs.. Similarly, Stockton dominated the 97' WCF and led the Jazz to the Finals, or Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF to lead the Lakers to the Finals - he also led the Lakers in scoring for hte 91' title run... Payton and Kemp alternated leading the team and both destroyed Pippen in the Finals... KJ dominated Magic to make the 90' WCF in upset fashion, and he also averaged 28/5/9 in 2 different seven-game series against Hakeem in the 94' and 95' Playoffs..

Again, only Pippen had low peak capability and was nothing outside the system - he averaged 14 on 43% in Houston just a few months after averaging 20 in the triangle.. Pippen's "system player" capability forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - this is unique to MJ - no one had to carry the scoring load anywhere near the extend that MJ did.. Everyone in history had teammates lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 in every SERIES.. So there's no comparison to MJ.. Only the goat didn't need great scoring help, while everyone else did.

Btw, in addition to having greater scoring help, most 1st options in the 90's had an all-time floor general at sidekick that could average 10 APG (Stockton, KJ, Payton, Hardaway), while Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 APG... So Jordan had less scoring and playmaking help than his peers, hence the goat stats that Jordan was forced to achieve (PER, PPG, BPM, WS/48, 1st team defense, etc)