LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Again, I have MJ #1 all time, but a lot of what you’re saying is inaccurate or at a minimum painting a picture that isn’t accurate. Such as Pippen vs Hughes.. The year Hughes came to CLE he got injured and missed two months. After that he was never the same player. His advanced stats weren’t even remotely close to an all-star level player after that. Whereas, Pippen who was younger, continued to improve and evolved into an all-star player. Pippen in 91-93 was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Hughes from 06-08. Their advanced stats respectably in those years are barely even comparable.

Calling Jaminson a far superior scorer to Pippen is also wildly inaccurate. Lebron played with him for one year where Jaminson averaged 15.8 ppg on .485 shooting from the field (not to mention an abysmal .506 from the free throw line). Pippen, in the six years the Bulls won averaged 19.35 ppg on .542 from the field.

You also do this again with Wade’s finals PPG by factoring in his first ring on the Heat. With Lebron he averaged 21, which isn’t a significant difference than Pippen’s 19. Also if you factor in percentage of overall scoring, Pippen is probably very similar considering how defensive oriented those finals were during the second three-peat.

Overall it feels like everything you’re saying has the same tune to it. A bias that pro MJ and against Lebron. You’re constantly cherry picking random stats without looking at the full picture. Just FYI, again, I think Jordan is the best ever but I’m not sure why you want to unfairly tear down Pippen or artificially inflate Lebron’s first stint CLE teammates to prove that MJ was better than Lebron. I don’t think those things matter in the argument.

All i did was ask how much we should factor in advanced stats to the GOAT conversation without trying to insinuate an argument towards or against any player. I'm not sure why your response to that was to go on a tirade trying to prove that Pippen was a trash player

Series won vs top opponents with weak scoring help (Finals opponents or top 5 SRS):

Jordan - 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 89' 1st Round, 97' ECF

Lebron - none

Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF, but Jordan would've beaten the Pistons with 10 points from Pippen in that game, and that's the kind of crap he frequently getting from Pippen during the title years:

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs..................... 15 on 40%
96' Pippen vs. #2 SRS Sonics.................. 16 on 34%
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat..................... 16 on 39%
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.................. 17 on 39%
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'...................... 16 on 41%

92' Pippen' vs Knicks (7-games)............. 16 on 40%
93' Pippen vs Dominique........................ 15 on 33%

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs................. 18 on 41%

^^^ Otoh, Lebron lost with 18 on 38% from Mo and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls - Lebron NEVER beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time and with worse team defenses than Lebron had... TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help.

You're completely disregarding anything Pippen did defensively.

HOF's like Bosh, Love and Westbrook cratered alongside Lebron, so naturally Jamison and Hughes did as well... So you're making my point by pointing out how Hughes cratered after joining Lebron, and Jamison as well..

Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that prevents good fits, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding a lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast (lower team ceilings)..

This is statistical fact - Lebron lowers the assists of teammates and increases their assisted rate/play-finishing - so he literally turns teammates into spot-up shooter - these spot-up roles prevent teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity coaching, thereby yielding a lower team ceilings (lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast)..

Indeed, the spot-up roles yield zero young player development - zero young players went from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch.. Again, Lebron's game prevents teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching...

Otoh, everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside MJ... Veterans like Woolridge, Oakley and Vincent played near career highs (capacity) alongside MJ, while rookies like Pippen, Grant and BJ grew by leaps and bounds every year.. This is because MJ was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with every teammate or system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, which imposes spot-up roles and bad fits.

Regarding Jamison, he was averaging 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but then cratered to 15/8, so he's another casualty of "bron-ball" just like Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT, Clarkson, Wade, and many more.

Even if AD was Hakeem on defense, 16 on 40% from AD would yield a guaranteed historic blow-out loss for Lebron.. Heck, Lebron can't win with AD getting damn-near 30 ppg and great efficiency, so imagine if he got half that on bad efficiency.

Ultimately, if a 2nd scoring option doesn't score, then they're just a defender and force the 1st option to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention) is unique to MJ when considering the level that he did this compared to everyone else.. no one had to carry the scoring load like MJ... and yet MJ still played 1st team defense and averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career.

heck, we just saw luka have a historic scoring season, but what if he was DPOY too?... that was MJ, the goat.... 35/6/6 with DPOY (3.0 steals and 1.6 blocks) is goat ENERGY

What did he do exactly?... Pippen's defense was nice, but the Bulls still lacked rim protection and athletic guards, so they still had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th), which was inferior to every ECF and Finals opponent (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks), except the 93' Suns.

There were many ways for the Bulls to have the #7 defense and inferior defenses to top opponents - they didn't need Pippen for that.. Maybe a little better rim protection or a better defensive PG would do the trick and then the Bulls could replace Pippen with a shooter and clutch assassin like Horry...

Btw, Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals when Horry averaged 18/10/3/2/3 on 50% - this was a better combination of raw stats (gamescore) than any of Pippen's Finals.. I bring this up to point out how easy it was to match or even exceed Pippen's performance.. Keep in mind that Horry had goat clutch and spacing, while Pippen lacked both.. And Horry didn't respect Pippen - listen to Horry say he would "lock up the sorry ass pippen" (here).

Not sure where you’re getting from that the Championship Bulls teams weren’t as good defensively as the Cavs teams during Lebron’s first stint in Cleveland.

Opponent ppg rating in league-

Bulls
91 - 4th
92 - 3rd
93 - 2nd
94 (Jordan retired) - 3rd
95 (Jordan Retired) - 5th
96 - 6th
97 - 1st (tie)
98 - 2nd

Average 3rd, with Jordan
Average 4th without Jordan

Cavs
04- 17th
05 - 10th
06 - 9th
07 - 5th
08 - 9th
09 - 1st
10 - 5th (tie)

Average 9th

Again, I’m team MJ, just pointing out a lot of what you’re saying is painting a picture that is inaccurate. Like for instance comparing Lebron with AD (who he won a championship with) to Jordan if he had AD. You have to compare them at similar points in their career. If Jordan had an AD caliber player on the Wizards, I highly doubt Jordan would have multiple Wizards championships. At this point in their careers Lebron is a far better player. Not necessarily an argument for GOAT status, but more so that your line of reasoning is very bias/faulty.

What is this normal cast crap when Kobe was the second best player on his own team for those first 3 rings. Jokic Curry LeBron Jokic and Giannis were all the best players on their respective teams. And none of them played with anyone as as good as Shaq in his prime. Give LeBron prime Shaq year one, give Kobe Cleveland trash and see what happens.

Taking a step back here, the entire point of your argument here is trying to prove Pippen was not a very good player. Which just isn't true. He was GREAT defensively and pretty good offensively. He was the only player in the entire league who was all NBA defense from 90-98 and was also all-NBA seven times in the 90's and his PPG/FG% numbers were only matched by less than 5% of the league each year. Comparing those 6 seasons in his prime to Antoine Jaminson's one season at age 33 is laughable.

Lebron missed the play in in 2022 becasue AD missed over half the season and Lebron missed 26 games. Again, you keep arguing things that have such a faulty line of logic.

Lebron went to MIA in 2011 in large part because Cleveland never surrounded him with another current all-nba player (and I would argue zero current all-stars). So he decided to do it himself.

22 Westbrook on a max contract is one of the worst value players in league history

Also it'd be like 96 bulls but you give up Rodman and Kukoc to get him, it wouldn't have went well, so no Jordan wouldn't dominate with him unless he literally just got added to roster for free and the Phil could just bench him

WAIT -- timeout -- FallGuy, you have Kobe second all time and Lebron 11th? LOL. I don't really know what to say anymore...

Do you think it would hurt his claim one iota if he'd been robbed in the voting in one or two of those finals?

Does it hurt LeBron's claim he doesn't have five MVPs in a row? Do you honestly think MJ is a better defender because he has a DMVP and LeBron doesn't?

Maybe my point wasnt clear, I agree you generally need MVP level seasons and rings as best player. I'll just be the judge of what seasons qualify when I'm deciding *my* GOAT tyvm

Welcome cbax, your induction is complete. We have years and thousands of posts of these types of arguments ahead, put the feet up and get cosy pal. 😀

The reason this thread exists - as you have already figured out quite obviously - is not because some people think MJ is the greatest of all time. Rather it’s because they want to twist reality to make LeBron a useless plumber who ruined basketball.

Now you understand why we don't take him seriously lol.

I'm team LeBron but I have no issue with Jordan #1 as long as you are logically consistent and have LeBron top 2.

TWOG is a hater who has a personal vendetta against LeBron and cherry picks whatever suits his narrative. It's the same tired BS every post... Pippen sucked... everyone LeBron played with in Clevelend was actually amazing... LARRY HUGHES, ERIC SNOW, ZYDRUNAS ILGAUSKAS, 38-year old SHAQUILLE O'NEAL! All amazing players that LeBron should have won with.

Pippen wasn't "pretty good" offensively.. He was worse than Jeff Green outside the system and benefitted from the Bulls' defensive focus that led to a lot of transition points.. His efficiency, 4th quarter and clutch numbers are worst-ever.. Listen to Pippen admit to Rachel Nichols that he cratered in Houston because he couldn't provide the spacing that a big man offense needed - keep in mind that most notable 1st options in the 90's were bigs, so he's basically admitting that he could only win with MJ.. Anyone that needed spacing like Hakeem or Lebron are screwed - Pippen literally compares himself to a bad Westbrick fit in talking to Rachel Nichols ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s]here[/url]).

Again, guys like Shaq said Pippen wasn't on the scouting report and Horry said he would easily "lock up" the "sorry ass" Pippen.. Pippen is infact 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so it's a low bar to find someone that can consistently outplay Pippen against top competition.

The stats and historical record shows that Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala or Larry Nance caliber but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status.. Similar to many secondary-producing and non-franchise player sidekicks like Klay, Pau, Dumars, and Parker, Pippen didn't get All-NBA until he won titles... Otoh, guys like Wade, Bosh, Love and AD were All-NBA before winning titles or even FMVP before colluding with Lebron.

Ultimately, the stats you cited earlier like PER and WS/48 put Pippen about 130th all-time, but the winning spotlight (ring count) makes him top 30 in the media's eyes and many nascent or casual fans.. BPM is a stat that is based a lot of team defense, which puts Pippen at 35th, but that's still below every Lebron sidekick (AD, Wade, Kyrie).. VORP is an accumulation stat based on games and minutes played, but Pippen's peak VORP season ranks 100th all-time... Given these weak production rates, no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, which makes him the most overrated player of all-time - a dunker that couldn't create his own shot and mentality that folded like cardboard.

I never said Jamison was a better player than Pippen - I said he's a better scorer, but they are infact close as players... Pippen could never outscore Lebron in a series, while Jamison easily did... Most people would agree that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, which means the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

(both the 2010 Cavs and 1st three-peat Bulls had #7 defense but the 09' and 07' Cavs had the #4 defense, while the 08' Cavs used their defense to take the Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron wetting the bed, aka 26 on 35%).

Lebron's skillset decreases his teammates' assists and increases their play-finishing, aka he turns teammates into spot-up shooters, so how could he develop players by turning them into spot-up shooters?

You tell me.

Lebron never developed any All-NBA players even though we know that Hughes was far better in 2005 than Pippen was in 1990, while Mo, Zydrunas and Jamison were all-stars alongside Lebron or recently before joining Lebron.. In addition to not developing the aforementioned talent, other guys that were already All-NBA like Love actually cratered alongside Lebron, so Lebron reverses positive trajectories.. Many guys cratered alongside him after promising expectations.

In contrast to lebron cratering teammates, Kobe turned a 1x all-star like Pau into a perennial All-NBA player, while MJ and Curry built single-digit rookies like Pippen, Klay and Dray into decorated veterans.. The common thread with these guys is expert jumpshooting skill (MJ, Curry, Kobe), which allows teammates to have the ball in their hands (improve) and get bailed out when needed.. This approach also facilitates ball movement and higher assists for teammates and teams, which leads to a brand that has winning records on the championship level.. The facts and historical record continue to support all claims put forth.

Jokic doesn't have any All-NBA players and neither did other guys.. Any all-timer like Curry, Giannis, Jokic, MJ and Lebron developed league favorites by Year 7 with normal or "organic" casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary producer at sidekick..

The difference is that Lebron gave up after Year 7 and teamed up with opposing franchise players thereafter - he achieved a greater roster than the 1 franchise player model roster by teaming up with multiple franchise players to achieve a "super-team" (3 franchise players on 1 team).. Yet he still mostly lost with each cast that he had - he never proved that he could have a dominant team that mostly won each year, regardless of what cast he's given, aka objectively inferior to MJ (6/6) and many others that achieved dominant teams.

But MJ stands alone because he was unbeatable the instant he got 1 star teammate (6 titles in 7 years), while Lebron mostly lost with 2 star teammates (3 titles in 7 years from 11-17').. MJ is essentially punished for winning with the first all-star he ever received and never needing another one, while everyone else in history needed many all-star teammates and still won much less than MJ.
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I gave logical criteria - history shows that certain skillsets develop better chemistry and therefore need the least help, which is expert jumpshooters, followed by centers, followed by ball-dominators - so the top 10 is ranked by the best in each category - the best jumpshooters (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), followed by the best centers (Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), followed by the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar) who needed the most help of any category.

So yes, this does place the turnover kingpin at #11, but at least it's logical (sort by least help needed to win and/or be unbeatable).. Btw, clearly Jokic will enter the top 10 above Lebron after 3 chips

Nobody thinks 39 year old Lebron is the GOAT. His time has passed so all of this is pointless. But he's still an all star level player which is impressive.

I think 29 year old Lebron on this current Lakers team would make them the title favourites.

Agreed and Lebron was preseason favorite from 2011-2016 and 2021, but only 3 titles in those 7 years (only 2 as first option) and it was nearly only 1 title due to 2 teammate bailouts.

So based on the historical evidence, 29-year old Lebron would still mostly lose with this favored cast just like every version of Lebron mostly lost with every cast he ever had.

Ultimately, Lebron never showed that he could win with normal casts of 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing, non-franchise player at sidekick (organic casts) - he always needed teams with multiple franchise players on the team, yet still mostly lost.. Bron-ball mostly lost with "normal" casts of 1 franchise player all the way up to "super-teams" of 3 franchise players.. Accordingly, he's the most beatable all-timer ever, with more bad losses than anyone ever (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, 1st-round losses, locked up in a loss, lottery - this is 16 of 21 years).

It turns out that ball-dominance isn't a great brand of ball, let alone big man ball-dominance (the worst kind of ball-dominance)

Can you repeat that a few more times? I still don't quite get it.

Great point if there's one thing Kobe was known for it's team chemistry hahaha

It's cute how when anyone else it's even one shot it's LeBron getting bailed out.

You don't even want to give him an ounce of credit for playing out of his mind the last 3 games against the 73 win warriors who added durant (2 of them road games) to win the championship in Cleveland. You have zero credibility when do do stuff like this.

The Dallas series is an inexcusable loss.

The first loss to GS Irving played 1 game and Love played 0 in the finals. I don't care if they were preseason favorites. Jordan isn't beating GS with that heap of **** team LeBron played with in those finals.

So realistically he was 3-3 with those "preseason favorite teams". You also act like preseason favorites are something like -200 when you're still a dog to the field.

If you wanna say Jordan is better fine but don't rewrite history.

Only 3 titles in 6 years? What a pathetic loser.

The “LeBron wasn’t first option in 2020” statement remains so silly, a great example of how TWOG / fallguy is full of ****.

‘But Davis had 27.7 ppg in the playoffs compared to LeBron’s 27.6ppg, the historical record is Davis was therefore the first option’

LeBron had the higher usage in the playoffs, was dishing 9 assists a game. But moreover:

- he was second in MVP voting
- he was unanimous 1st Team All - NBA along with Giannis
- he was the Finals MVP

It’s just the constant effort to get these things through that ruin all credibility. The sheer desperate WANT for LeBron to be lessor than he is. It’s so sad.