LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem....... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'........... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP.......................... 11.0.............3.5............... 1.2............ 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan'.......... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen.......... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.......................... 13.2............ 9.6............... 2.1............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'............... 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry.............. 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................... 4.9...............1.1.............. 0.5.............. 0.031........... 10.2

92' Jordan''.......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen........... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP............................ 7.1............. 3.3.............. 0.8.............. 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan'........... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen........... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.......................... 10.0............. 8.1.............. 1.4............... 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan'........... 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........... 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP............................. 7.3............. 2.9.............. 0.6.............. 0.122........... 13.8

97' Jordan'............ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP............................. 9.1............. 4.8.............. 1.0.............. 0.090.......,... 11.9

98' Jordan'............ 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............ 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP............................. 8.7............. 3.4............... 0.8.............. 0.095.......... 16.4

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:

Accordingly the statistical record confirms that Pippen's burden or production rates weren't all-time caliber, and therefore his performance was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade

It's always AD-ball against the top teams like the 2020 Nuggets... Or even this year when the Lakers were ahead by 20 - it was AD-ball at that time - but then Lebron-ball lost the lead in the 2nd half..

So it's a tie at best between AD and Lebron, whereas the stats above show that MJ's 6 rings were among the biggest carry-jobs of all-time - carry-jobs of that magnitude are only one-offs like Dirk, Hakeem or 03' Duncan, but MJ did it 6 times.. If we did that analysis for AD/Lebron in 2020 or this year, the "GAP" would be negligible across the board and therefore a tag-team effort instead of carry-job like 94' Hakeem or MJ's rings.

Btw, AD didn't just lead Lebron in scoring for the 2020 playoffs, he led the whole league on both sides of the ball - that's why the Lakers went from lottery to champion in AD's first season - it's a GOAT season for AD.

However, AD and his team have been significantly hindered by having to deal with an insufferable aging star that wants to hang on and 'chase ghosts' and dominate the ball.. AD was fortunate to get a ring upfront before Lebron had time to stink up the joint with his worst-ever chemistry, brand of ball and coaching futility.. Unfortunately for Darvin Ham, the coach is the ultimate fall guy.

You would make an incredible scientist.

It’s more of a pathetic goat.
Obviously still a winning great player ?

I'm just providing a thorough answer to your question about PER, BPM, VORP, & WS/48

However, people forget that 1st options dictate brand of ball, so there are ball-dominant PER's that impose spot-up roles, thereby preventing teammate development and elite chemistry (Luka, Lebron), or there are PER's that allow the ball to move and have great chemistry (Curry, MJ, Jokic)... The PER with great chemistry will obviously win a lot more, and with less help, while also developing teammates much better..

Due to the 1st option's impact on brand of ball and teammate development, a direct comparison of PER between 1st options isn't as valuable as comparing 2nd options, who are closer to pure stat-producers that don't dictate brand of ball.. So a comparison of PER/BPM/VORP/WS/48 between 2nd options like Larry Nance and Pippen is valuable, while a comparison of Kobe, Bird and Lebron doesn't reflect the teammate development, chemistry and brand of ball advantage (winning advantage) that Kobe or Bird have.. Otoh, when we look at 2nd options (pure stat producers), we see that Pippen ranks about 130 in PER all-time and never played above a prime Iguodala or Nance level, but the winning spotlight/ring count inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Great chemistry and winning inflates the status of role players and defenders like Pippen, Draymond or Aaron Gordon - these guys were lucky to land alongside generational offensive talents that produced tremendous brand of ball and chemistry... But we saw Pippen crater outside the system that he grew up in.. The same would be true for Draymond if he was toiling away in Detroit with 8/7/6 averages - no one would give a crap who he was.. Meanwhile, Gordon was a reject before latching on to Jokic... It's the winning chemistry and subsequent ring count that inflates the all-time value of these secondary producers.

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Summary of lessons learned in Nuggets-Lakers series

Role players perform better within great chemistry, while history shows that great chemistry and subsequent winning can inflate the status of secondary producers and defenders like Aaron Gordon, Pippen or Draymond - these guys were lucky to land alongside generational offensive talents that produced tremendous brand of ball and chemistry, which inflated the stats, ring count and ultimately the status of these secondary producers... But we saw Pippen crater outside the system and his averages within the system were still ordinary... The same would be true if Draymond was toiling away in Detroit with 8/7/6 averages - no one would give a crap who he was and his ordinary numbers wouldn't get the props they do now with the luster of a gaudy ring count behind them.. Meanwhile, Gordon was a reject before latching on to Jokic and his numbers are ordinary... So it's the winning chemistry and subsequent ring count that inflates the all-time status of these secondary producers.. If only Rui, Ingram, Kuzma or Vanderbilt could've latched on to Jokic instead of Gordon, then they would be recognized as all-timers due to their ring count alongside Jokic - ring count makes these guys all-timers, not their production rates or stats... Ultimately, a guy like Pippen never played above a prime Iguodala or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight and ring count inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Similar to many winning sidekicks such as Dumars, Tony Parker, Pau, or Klay, Pippen didn't get All-NBA until after he won a title.

Actual lesson learned -team with the best player in the league and a very good supporting cast will beat a team with the former best player in the league at 39 years old.
Denver was -400 for a reason.

Also try paragraphs.

Except you're not. You're purposely cherrypicking and twisting data to form false conclusions to fit your narrative. It's like you've been given a prompt which states you must prove MJ is better than Lebron rather than actually logically/unbiasedly analyzing the data. A great example is your Larry Hughes/Pippen argument which can be easily disproven in 5 seconds. The fact that you ran with it either means you're a huge idiot (which I don't think you are), so far bias it has completely clouded your judgement, or just flat trolling everybody.

The reason I was being facetious is there are so many variables in your Jordan/Hakeem/Dirk data that not only can no logical conclusion be formed but you also contradicted yourself and actually provided data that proved what you were trying to make us all believe is actually false.

You're literally just lying at this point. You've lost any and all credibility. Iggy's best PER season was 19.0 in '08. Pippen's PER was higher than 19.0 every single year from '91-'98

He lies all the time, he literally got caught saying Shaq was 35 when he was teammates with LeBron. Anyone can verify that Shaq was 38 in 2010.

Mind you, he also ranks Kobe as the #2 player of all-time, because Kobe supposeddly "carried" 3-time finals MVP Shaq to 3 titles. So prime Shaq is worse than Kobe, yet 38-year old Shaq was supposed to help LeBron win.

Make that pile of garbage make sense.

I don't have to prove Lebron is inferior because he consistently plays worse than MJ ever did... This season, he failed to win 50 games with a David Robinson-level teammate - that's disqualifying regardless of age..

38-year old MJ added 18 more wins to the injury-riddled Wizards in 02', so he would never miss the play-in with AD and Westbrook, or fail to win 50 this year with AD having such a dominant season.. And don't blame age because PRIME LEBRON barely won 50 with 2 all-stars in 14' or 17' - having weak teams with preseason favorites and stacked rosters is disqualifying.. Mostly losing with 2 star teammates is disqualifying when MJ was unbeatable with just 1... Having bad chemistry and a long list of bad fits that causes all this team underachievement is disqualifying.

Getting destroyed with 22 on 35% in the 07' Finals is disqualifying - it invalidates his Eastern conference win because apparently a 22 on 35% bum achieved it.. Many other 22-year olds did far better against championship comp, such as Amare averaging 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, or 20-year Magic getting FMVP, or 23-year old MJ averaging 44 on 50% against the Celtics and their #1 defense, while 23-year Lebron wet the bed vs 08' Celtics (26 on 35%)... So don't make excuses - shooting 35-39% in a loss is disqualifying and Lebron did it 3 times.

So there's no real debate - only a fake one.

The Hughes argument is validated by the Westbrook argument... And the Ingram argument... And the IT or Wade arguments... Lebron had bad fits with many spotty-shooting ball-dominators like himself.

So despite your misperceptions, the historical record shows that Lebron received MANY guys that were vastly superior to 1990 Pippen, including the aforementioned 05' Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook and Wade - all were bad fits that underachieved expectation... So the Hughes argument was never invalidated because it's a general historical trend that Lebron cannot fit with Pippen-type players (spotty-shooting ball-handlers).

So again, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.. But even though Hughes was healthy for most of 07' and all of 08', the Cavs were winning 45-50 games due to bad fit with Hughes - it's Lebron's fault that he lacks the skill to fit with pippen-like players such as Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook or Wade because it's Lebron that lacks the required "off-guard" skillset - this includes expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Again, this is a skill deficit that Lebron has in relation to Jordan or Curry that hinders his chemistry and winning ability compared to them.

I know you're happy about tonight but remember that 3-0 deficits in the 1st round = sweeps in the GOAT debate - Jordan was never swept 4-0..

So Lebron has sweeps or record losses in 07', 14', 18', 23', and 24', while having the goat choke in 11' and another record loss with 2 all-star teammates in 17'... Upset losses in 09' or 10' and lottery in his prime with Ingram, or missed play-ins with AD and Westbrook..

Accordingly, o one has more bad losses than Lebron, which coupled with his lottery record on the championship level makes him the biggest loser of all-time
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nobody gives a rat's ass about the Lakers winning tonight as far as this topic goes. Nobody who thinks Lebron is better thinks this game helps their case at all. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But you thinking getting swept in the finals with a heap of **** team in 2007 is a knock on Lebron is mid 2000's level Chappelle funny.

The fact you even mention 39 year old Lebron in this context is really funny. Kobe was a washed up chucking bum at 36. Jordan at this age was way worse than Lebron. I still think Jordan's prime is better than Lebron's but Lebron being better at 39 than Jordan (lmao @even mentioning Kobe in the same breath at Lebron at this age or frankly any age) doesn't somehow help your argument.

Like yea we get it you don't like Lebron. Nobody cares. You think you have these amazing "gotcha" points when you try to compare him at 39 to Jokic in his prime. I hate to break it to you but prime Jokic would abuse old man Wizards Jordan and he could be **** faced drunk of his ass and abuse 36 (yes 3 years younger) Kobe left handed.

I'm actually excited to hear your argument on how a Wizards MJ would have won a ring with this Lakers team if he replaced Lebron. I'd like to prematurely nominate it for spin zone of the year.

You beat me to it!

Here are the sobering facts - MJ needed nothing to win 40 games in 1987, while Lebron needed the East all-star center to win 40 in 2005.

Jordan also needed nothing and no coaching to win 50 in 88', while the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas won 50 in by adding a HOF coach and 22/5/5 1st team defender in 06'.

Hughes was healthy for most of 07' and all of 08', yet the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas could only win 45 games with him in 08' before Lebron received the all-star spacing that his stiff arm needed in 09' to be MVP and have a real contender.

And yes, 22 on 35% is disqualifying - the fact that a 22 on 35% player won the East shows that it didn't take a goat-level player to win it and we already saw Iverson, Dwight and Kidd win with 1-star teams.. Furthermore, the 22 on 35% is especially disqualifying because this performance was validated by Lebron doing the same thing in 08' against the Celtics (26 on 35%) - so he simply wasn't capable of performing against championship comp at that age, which makes MJ and others vastly superior at that age..

Heck, Lebron gets a pass for being 22 and 23 years old, but then people give him props for beating 23-year old Westbrick and KD in 2012.. Infact, it's disqualifying for a veteran super-team to be underdogs to baby Westbrick.. Accordingly, history confirms that Lebron underperforms favored talent by losing with preseason favorites or falling to underdog for 6 straight years (2011-2016), except the Allen miracle... And then losing with preseason favorite again in 2021...

It's objective fact that preseason favorites are favored talent, so losing with them is losing with favored talent - that's what Bron-ball does for 21 years and counting... And don't blame age because PRIME LEBRON barely won 50 with 2 all-stars in 14' or 17' - having weak teams with preseason favorites and stacked rosters is disqualifying.. Mostly losing with 2 star teammates is disqualifying when MJ was unbeatable with just 1.

This proves my entire point. Why would I care about tonight? I've said about 7 times in the last 48 hours I think MJ is the greatest of all time. Your judgement is so clouded you've lost all ability at reading comprehension.

And again, you can't compare '05 Hughes with '90 Pippen. Pippen was still developing and got significantly better in '91-'92. '05 Hughes was not the same player in Cleveland. If Lebron's play was directly responsible for this you'd see Hughes, once he left CLE, revert back to a level of performance relative to his pre CLE years, which he never did.

Having a good regular season builds chemistry, momentum and favorite status for the postseason

Unfortunately, Lebron has eschewed a chemistry approach since 2011 when he opted for a talent-based approach, at which point all losses were blamed on insufficient talent (more help needed) - this meant that the regular season was largely unnecessary because it's primary purpose of building chemistry wasn't an objective anymore.

So how would Wizards MJ win with this laker team assuming he doesn't get injured?... The team would go all-out in the regular season to build better chemistry, momentum and favorite status.. These Lakers wouldn't have a low seed and wouldn't face the Nuggets in the first round.. And there would be a perfect fit with a happy D-Lo because he gets to run the point unfettered with MJ off-the-ball.. Meanwhile, AD gets the frontcourt to himself - the entire team is elevated by the superior fits, ball movement and defensive accountability.. It would be night and day.. Of course even Wizards' Jordan as hitting game-winners in Shawn Marion's face and was superior in the clutch than the turnover machine and bricklayer LeScared and LeBlameGame.

Btw, since Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve in 2011 and opted for a talent-based approach, he never really learned how to win (chemistry development, organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy)... Imagine having drastically inferior chemistry than the Spurs or nuggets and blaming the loss on needing more help, smh... that's a talent-based winner for ya

My favorite part of this is when you rewarded Jordan for winning 50 in '88 with "no coaching", despite his coach being inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame as a coach, and you penalized Lebron for needing a Hall of Fame coach to win 50, despite his coach only being elected to the --checks notes-- Mesa Community College Hall of Fame as a player.

Congrats sir. You have won spin zone of the year.

Hughes wasted his prime years in Lebron-ball just like Love, Bosh, and others

And the point is that MJ almost beat the Pistons with 1989 or 1990 Pippen, so what would he do with a player that was performing much better than Pippen, while already having the East all-star center?.. Clearly, Lebron had a completely stacked teams compared to Jordan's 80's teams and even his 1990 team.. And we already discussed how Lebron's 09' and 10' teams kept adding players and had more scoring options or better defensive rank than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

Btw, most people don't know that Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and had 7 points in Game 5, so he basically missed Games 5 and 6 of the 89' ECF, while also missing Game 7 in 1990... If Jordan gets 10 points from Pippen in these games, he easily beat the Pistons in both 89' and 90' with essentially nothing - so the point is that when Jordan started winning from 91-98', that's basically what he was getting from pippen - garbage like 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or 17 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs, or worst-ever efficiency in the 93' and 96-98' runs.. so jordan never had a talented cast - he won with low-producers by developing great chemistry over time because his skillset allows great ball movement and brand of ball.

All those great Cavs players he got to play with meanwhile he'd leave and they'd win 20 games. Jordan left the bulls won 55 so give it a rest already. Please tell me more about NBA legends Illgalscous and Antoine Jamison who played with LeBron for about 25 games total then led the Cavs to one of those sweet 20 win seasons.

You're the one trying to draw conclusions from 39 year old LeBron vs prime joker not anybody else in this thread. But wizards Jordan was a lot worse than this and Kobe 3 years younger was beyond washed- not just worse than his prime but an absolute garbage player. Your pretzel logic is rather amusing. Somehow this is a knock on LeBron despite being way better than those 2 guys at that age. Make that make sense.

Pippen also led the bulls to 55 wins and got absolutely hosed on a phantom foul call against Hubert Davis which cost the Bulls a game against the Knicks in 94,a series the Knicks won in 7 games before losing the finals in 7 games to Hakeem. LeBron leaves and the Cavs get the number 1 pick. Good talk.

The 2011 Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Varejao, Mo, Shaq, Delonte, and Zydrunas, which was 52 ppg combined.

The 2015 Heat were injured by nearly made the ECF in 2016.

The 2019 Cavs were injured with Love out

So the whole narrative about teams collapsing without Lebron is low intelligence and false

Meanwhile, the 94' Bulls won 55 because no one cared about playing them - they peaked as 2nd round losers and would've been lottery in 95' or 96' if MJ hadn't returned... that's the goat impact - lottery team in 95' or 96' without MJ, to goat team with MJ.

That's a cute pile of puke you just mentioned about the Cavs. Just an absolute joke of a squad.

Hahahaah they won 55 games bc nobody paid attention hahaha
That's funny even for you.
That **** you just mentioned for the Cavs would need a 300 game season to win 55 games.

I got news for you-pippen definitely got a lot of attention in 94 but the Cavs got absolutely zero attention without LeBron.

2nd round losers in a 7 game series to the team that lost in 7 in the finals after getting totally ****ed out of a game by the refs. Yea they were horrible.

Lottery team? They were a game above .500 Jordan game back in 95.

Like I said try using facts. When people do what you do it just takes away from the Jordan is better argument.

Now please regale me with some more great tales such as how dominate 38 year old Shaq was with the Cavs (if only Kobe was lucky enough to play with such a fine specimen)and how LeBron is simultaneously better than Jordan and Kobe at this age but also hurts his legacy with his play at this age.

How can Kobe be number 2 all time when he was the second best player on his own team (but didn't play with Jordan) when he was AWFUL at 35-37? And LeBron merely being a very good player in his late 30s hurts his GOAT case?

I'll take Jordan over LeBron but LeBron is so much closer to Jordan than Kobe is to LeBron.

But at least there was that great team chemistry Kobe provided lmao.

So rings do, in fact, matter to the GOAT discussion? Can you explain why? Please be as specific as possible.

Earlier in the thread, when people would point out that Jordan has 6 championships, which is pretty impressive, there would be a chorus of LOL RANGZ, or other similar intelligent responses.

What is your opinion of those responses? Again, please be as specific as possible. Bonus points for the use of logic and consistency.

Hubert Davis can say he went to the moon it doesn't make it true. Pippen didn't touch him.

Notice how when you say Pippen sucked in certain series he actually did suck in ,I don't dispute it. But when I mention how well he played in 94 your retort is he sucked in the 89 ecf . Which has ****ing NOTHING to do with 94. Oh and teams didn't try against the bulls in 94 that was a good one!

I mean I'm not pretending the 94 bulls are some all time great team but they'd absolutely smoke every single Cavs team LeBron was on if you remove LeBron except the 2 seasons Irving was healthy in the finals. Utterly destroy them. If my memory is correct that's 9 of his 11 Cavs teams just getting skull ****ed by the 94 bulls.

Speaking of the 98 ECF- Pippen and Jordan both SUCKED ass in game 7. Kukoc bailed them out. Jordan controls the narrative in a documentary on that team. They spend about half an hour on that game and don't mention Kukoc once. That's some fallguy level spin.