LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

This is amazing

The dumb ones in this thread are the ones who keep replying to fallguy.

Nobody ever said they don't matter. They just aren't the only thing that matters.

But yeah, if Karl Malone had 2 rings with 2 finals MVPs he probably gets put a lot higher on people's lists.

If Malone wins those two Finals in the 90s he's easy Top 10.

If I wake up and don't 3 walls of text babbling about ball.dominance and expert jump shooting the day just isn't right.

probably ranks higher then hakeem because its 2 rings where he actually beat mj but im not even sure hakeem is top 10 ?

mj,lebron,kareem,bird,magic,duncan,shaq,kobe already 8 (just a quick glance ?)
russell and wilt not even there.

ps: but its true it does change a lot of things since mj might actually go down and we reshuffle the top 5 but doesnt make the other being ejected from top 10 either?

If Malone had 2 rings with finals MVPs to add onto his monster regular season consistency and 2 regular season MVPs, he might hop over guys like Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq.

And in that hypothetical world where Jordan would be only 4-2 instead of 6-0, his status as GOAT would be much less solidified.

Ok, let me make sure I am understanding you — you are saying that NO ONE in this thread has EVER argued that the fact Michael Jordan has 6 rings is irrelevant? No one has ever typed “LOL RANGZ” when it’s pointed out that Jordan has more championships than LeBron?

I am not in the mood to search this thread and copy/paste old posts. But LeGasLighting may motivate me.

So do you think if player A has more championships than player B, that is a significant point in player A’s favor? In context of other things of course. (Note I am not saying it’s the only thing that matters. No one has said it’s the only thing that matters.)

Look this isn’t very clever, and isn’t related to what I wrote.

I don’t particularly care if Jokic wins X rings; what we care about is him dominating the league for a decade long stretch. He’s still on the front 9 here, that seems very obvious. If Jokic continues to play at this absurd level for another ~half decade; and then plays another 5 years again at All NBA level then the rings will come OR there will be very specific context for why it was conference finals or finals losses.

It isn’t just about rings, as everyone has said here a million times before. If you dominate for a decade, you’ll get some amount of them. It probably won’t be a very specific and near perfect set of circumstances to be 6 - 0 in the finals, and that’s okay.

This is a lot of words, but is not very specific. Remember, I said to please be as specific as possible. This is the opposite; very vague and ambiguous.

How, specifically (remember, specifically), do you measure if Jokic does/does not dominate the league for a decade?

And if you do not particularly care if Jokic wins X rings, why did you bring up rings? And why did multiple people (including poster LuckyLloyd) say he needs more rings to be considered as GOAT?

Asking again, so you see it and don’t avoid specific questions: how are you going to determine if Jokic dominates? And why do you sometimes say Jokic needs more rings and sometimes say you don’t particularly care if a player has X rings? Remember, be specific. Bonus points for logic and consistency.

My prediction: the statement of Jokic needing more rings to be considered GOAT is going to morph into “rings don’t matter RANGZRANGZRANGZ. Is Robert Horry GOAT? lolol” and the “the only thing that matters is longevity you have to be good for exactly 21 seasons.”

I know this because LeBron Stans are nothing if not predictable.

Cool story bro. LeBron people in this thread are consistently saying they don’t expect LeBron to be the GOAT forever. Human progress doesn’t work like that. Another half decade or so of this level of dominance from Jokic and the conversation will be real.

No one expects Jordan to be the GOAT forever either. We just expect that when he is surpassed by someone in the future, it will be based on rational criteria and not “he’s my favorite player”.

Please be specific when answering these questions:

1) Do rings matter when determining GOAT or who is/was the better player? Yes or no

1a) (a corrolary to 1) What did you mean when you said Jokic needs more rings to be in the GOAT conversation? This was in your post #20371, if you need to refresh your memory.

2) Why does Jokic need another 5 years (or so) of dominance? Why not 6, or 10, or 15? Does he need 21 years? Why doesn’t he have enough now?

3) What if Jokic 3 peats while being the best player in the league for each championship? What if he does it twice? Is this adequate or does he need to play for 21 seasons?

Please be specific. Again, bonus points for logic and consistency. And, as you said, “this isn’t that hard”, and “cool story bro”.

nah it's the opposite. It's always "rangz, nothing else matters" except of course when Bill Russel is mentioned and then all of the sudden that lazy argument goes right out the window.

Enlarge this gif if needed - pippen hacks Hubert so that Hubert's hand/wrist is knocked to the left and it sends the shot wayward as well:

HOF announcer Hubie Brown said it was a clear-cut hack right after it happened on live TV:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQk...

So you're just lying again to continue the fraudulent Lebron goat case - but you're caught red-handed this time because the video is clear.. it's sad - you're brainwashed or blind!!

Pippen was outplayed by Ewing in the 94' ECSF and averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series - that's why Phil instinctively went away from Pippen in crunch-time and it worked - great move by Phil to avoid Pippen in the clutch.. It's too bad he couldn't avoid Pippen for the rest of the 4th as well (3.0 on 20%).

And the point about the 89' ECF is that Jordan lost in 6 games because Pippen literally missed game 6 and basically missed Game 5 too... 10 points from Pippen in these games or the "migraine" game the following year would've allowed MJ to beat the Pistons in 89' and 90'... So the point is that Jordan didn't need anything to beat the Pistons and when he finally started winning from 91-98', he was basically getting these 10 points or total garbage from Pippen - this includes 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, or 16 on 40% in multiple critical 7-game series and Finals, or worst-ever shooting splits for the 93' run and 96-98' runs.

So Jordan never had a good cast - the 91' cast was exactly the same as the 89' cast except Pippen/BJ increased by 4 ppg each - neither contributed anymore in the clutch - it was still all MJ every game... That's why the PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP figures and "gap analysis" performed earlier shows that Jordan had 6 carry-job rings similar to Dirk or Hakeem's one-off carry-jobs.

due to superior developed chemistry, not superior talent

Lebron's team had better supporting talent such as franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, but Jordan's team would win more without him due to the developed chemistry just like Curry or Jokic's teams would also win more without them for the same reason...

But by no means is Pippen, Klay or Murray anywhere near a franchise player like AD, Wade or even Kyrie, and of course their 3rd options aren't franchise guys either like Bosh or Love were.. From 2011-2016, only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were the preseason favorite every year - Durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond..

Do yourself a favor and re-watch the 4th quarter of the 98' ECF - Jordan is making every play down the stretch - Kukoc helps keep it close through 3 quarters, along with Jordan, but Jordan is the dominant player down the stretch of that game.. Pippen was MIA for the series of course - his 16 on 39% was transition or flow points, so never anything that requires game-planning like closing out on shooters/spacers, or potentially doubling or helping on an iso player.. Only MJ required gameplanning like this, and occasionally Kukoc and closing out on Kerr - that's it - but the main issue was how to double-team MJ, which hurts your defensive rebounding, according to Van Gundy (here).

The fact that MJ could turn Kukoc into a guy that could give him spurts of offense is a testament to his CAREER of elevating teammates and teammates playing near capacity (career highs) alongside him.. this contrasts with Lebron's skillset that imposes spot-up roles - there's a long list of guys that cratered alongside this toxic skillset.. :Literally the biggest loser of all-time when we look at bad losses (sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, chokes, lotteries and locked up in a loss - this is 17 of 21 seasons) plus worst-ever Finals record = biggest loser in NBA history.

I reject the premise of your position, your questions presuppose that LeBron has to be judged through the narrow prism of what Jordan did or that Jokic will have to pass through the same prism as LeBron. It doesn’t work like that, this isn’t the passion of the Mike or LeBron. Jokic’s path will be unique and has to play out over a longer time period, when we’ll be able to make those comparative arguments.

It’s worth remembering that this thread started as LeBron was finishing up his 10th season, in the course of winning his second title and Finals MVP. If Jokic goes deep again this year he’s on the radar for sure. Let’s see what happens.

It's a fact... If Jordan never returned in 95', the Bulls were borderline .500 and a low seed - this is fact and it's a massive decline from 1994 - this downward trajectory would likely yield lottery that year or the following year in 96'.. Accordingly, compare this quick descent into lottery status without MJ, to being the goat team with MJ - that's goat impact...

This type of catastrophic, franchise-changing impact is similar to the 80's Bulls without MJ - Pippen isn't a Jokic, Curry or MJ-level player that can build a team from scratch (lottery to champion)... The Bulls required "the shot" and goat stats to gain playoff experience and grow from lottery to champion.. Pippen could only get on board for the ride and then get handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94', at which point he crashed the car within 18 months (borderline .500 before MJ returned in 95')..

Ultimately, Pippen could never build a 50-win team from scratch or have a "real" 50-win team that can win 50 every year - the Bulls were a joke once teams woke up and actually gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT - see the Bulls collapse in the 94' Playoffs and 95' regular season before MJ returned to restore 3-peats... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

The Bulls had a winning record before Jordan returned in 95, “lottery” they were not.

those bulls were never going to be a lottery team.

also lmao@ pretending year two 22 year old Pippen and year seven 27 year old Pippen are the same. It's almost like players have ages where they're in their prime.

You know who were actual lottery teams? the trash Lebron had in Cleveland.

lmao@ calling the 94 bulls a playoff collapse team. At this point you're just saying words randomly.

You're misstating what I said - I said the 95' Bulls were borderline .500 (34-31) and a low seed before MJ returned, which is a massive decline from 94'.. Based on this sharp downward trajectory, the Bulls would've been lottery that year or 1996, instead of being the goat team with MJ - that's the goat impact..

(if MJ hadn't returned in 95', the remainder of the 94' season would've been a pressure-filled, dogfight and it's likely the Bulls fall 1 or 2 games as needed for them to be out of playoffs - regardless, their downward trajectory indicates likely lottery status in either 95' or 96', compared to having the goat team with MJ)

Again, this type of catastrophic, franchise-changing impact is similar to the 80's Bulls without MJ - Pippen isn't a franchise player like Jokic, Curry or MJ that can build a team from scratch (lottery to champion)... The Bulls required "the shot" and goat stats to gain playoff experience and grow from lottery to champion.. Pippen could only get on board for the ride and then handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94', at which point he crashed the car within 18 months (borderline .500 before MJ returned in 95')..

Ultimately, Pippen could never build a 50-win team from scratch or have a "real" 50-win team that can win 50 every year - the Bulls were a joke once teams woke up and actually gave a crap about playing the Bulls without the GOAT - see the Bulls collapse in the 94' Playoffs and 95' regular season before MJ returned to restore 3-peats... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

Nobody is saying Pippen is Curry Jokic or MJ but thanks for stating the obvious.
What's your next post? Water is wet? 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers? Oh I know- Kyrie Irving is better than Steve Kerr!

What's amazing you is you want to do pretzel logic to declare a 55 win and .500 ish team a lottery team then ignore the actual lottery teams Lebron dragged to finals. Great stuff keep up the good work.

You aren't thinking about it clearly... Could Klay have developed the warriors without Curry?... It's obvious that the Warriors would be lottery in 2014 without Curry and heading nowhere, instead of having several years of development under their belt and on the cusp of a dynasty WITH curry.. It takes massive offensive production from guys like Curry, Barkley, MJ, Embiid or Lebron to build bad teams into contenders - guys like Klay and Pippen simply don't produce enough to build teams like that.. Again, Pippen was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and wrecked it pretty quickly.

Another example is the 89' Bulls - they won 47 games and the playoff cut was 45 wins, so they were obviously lottery without MJ's 33/8/8.. How could Pippen build that team into a champion without MJ hitting "the shot" and averaging 40/6/8 to achieve massive upset against the Cavs and Knicks?.. This is the kind of performance it takes from guys like Malone, Barkley, Embiid or any franchise player to build a lottery cast into winners.. The Bulls would clearly be 1st Round losers without MJ in 89' and where would that team go in 90'?.. They would be headed nowhere instead of towards being the goat dynasty.. that's how big an impact Jordan had.. If pippen was leading that team, it simply isn't enough talent - again, any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' before MJ returned.

There's no world where Love or Bosh are franchise players but Pippen and Klay aren't.

What a load of bullshit. WHAT “premise” of what “position”? I didn’t state a “position”. I asked you if rings mattered yes or no, and you absolutely refuse to answer the question. The LuckyLloyd prism of bullshit.

Lol I ask if one specific criteria matters for judging player greatness. Literally “yes” or “no”. And this is the passion of the LeBron. So dramatic.

So you want to reject any specific, objective criteria, that you yourself bring up when you claim Jokic can’t be the GOAT, and instead want to talk about a players “path” of righteousness as they walk through the valley of the shadow of Cleveland. Or is it Miami, or Los Angeles. I don’t know which superteam path shines the brightest light on LuckyLloyd’s prism of bs.

Let’s try again: I’ll give anyone 10:1 odds that LuckyLloyd won’t answer this question in his next post and will instead start talking about the path of the prophet LeBron.

Do rings matter? Yes or no