LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I will copy paste my post again. Perhaps you will read it this time. In the post, you can see that Ant/MJ raw scoring outputs are similar at the same age. There is no 5-10 point gap. There is also a note that that league has gotten more efficient so MJ was better on a relative basis. I am questioning if you read the posts you respond to.

In about a month KAT and Gobert are going to become franchise players. Can’t WAIT.

Ant had 4 years to develop his team so let's compare this to MJ's 1st year so we can say 22-year Ant is winning more than 22-year MJ.

It's a weak trick but it has worked on 99.5% of hoops fans.

Why do we compare 4th-year veteran high seeds to rookie 8 seeds and draw conclusions?

Due to the different development schedules of players and also rules that forced players into college, age is irrelevant when comparing players.. Otoh, the number of years in the league is obviously the relevant factor..

By Jordan's 4th healthy season (89'), he was taking nothing casts to the ECF and was the only team to win games off the champs.. This is better than getting swept by the champs while averaging 22 on 36%.. The stats always show Jordan is the best and carried the biggest burden (especially compared to Ant or Bron).. However, his record in his early 20's is influenced by entering the league at a "late" age of nearly 22, rather than getting 4 years to develop a team before 22 years of age..

Mj's injury in 86' also caused management to get a new roster in 87', so the 87' Bulls were really a 1st year team - the top 2 options (Woolridge, Gervin) were removed from a 30-win team - that's what MJ had entering the 87' season.

Otoh, Ant has an All-NBA alpha as a teammate and also the goat defender - obviously, Jordan 3-peated with a lot less
.

So I ask you , u compare by age or by season number?
Just get the first 3 season of mj (discard the obvious second year ) and compare it to Edward’s and u tell me they don’t have a 5-10 ppg difference ?
Taking that 18 games second year into consideration is so laughably disingenuous….
They prevent in half the games to play more then 10-15 min …

And even more disingenuous lol , why u pick career for mj in playoff but only is first 2 season in regular season ???

Ah yes play offs he had crazy stats but regular season he couldn’t play lol ….

Ps: by year 3 (which in reality was his second full season) , mj was already the top 2-3 best player in the league ….

Incredible. You still did not read the post. The statistics are clearly labeled. The stats are per 36 minutes, minutes played per game are irrelevant.

MJ’s career stats are listed as well - he averaged 1.7 points per 36 minutes more than Edwards this season on worse efficiency.

I don’t see why Ant should get penalized for playing in the NBA instead of college - surely his performance the first 3 years is more impressive than averaging 17.7 points against college bums.

Dont bother replying as your reading comprehension is alarming and I won’t be engaging further.

It was KAT's team through the 2022 season - he laid the T'Wolves foundation and kept them afloat by producing at a higher rate than prime Pippen:

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html#2016-2022-sum:advanced]17-22' KAT[/url]................ 24.7 PER... 4.8 BPM..... 0.193 WS/48.... 24.2.. 11.3.. 3.3.. 0.8.. 1.3.. 62.4 TS.. 2.8 tov.. 40.0% threes (4.7 attempts)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1998-sum:advanced]91-98' Pippen[/url].......... 21.2 PER... 6.0 BPM..... 0.185 WS/48.... 20.0.... 6.5.. 6.0.. 2.2.. 0.9.. 54.6 TS.. 2.9 tov.. 33.8% threes (3.0 attempts)

Since it wasn't Ant's team until 2 years ago, he's had far more help and therefore needed less personal dominance/production rate to win 55 games than MJ needed:

[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:advanced]90-93' Jordan[/url]........... 30.1 PER... 11.1 BPM... 0.287 WS/48.... 31.9.. 6.5.... 5.9.. 2.6.. 0.8.. 58.8 TS.. 2.7 tov.. 34.2% threes (2.1 attempts)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/edwaran01.html]2024 Edwards[/url]'......... 19.7 PER..... 3.3 BPM... 0.130 WS/48.... 25.9.. 5.4.... 5.1.. 1.3.. 0.5.. 57.5 TS.. 3.1 tov.. 35.7% threes (6.7 attempts)

22-year Jordan also had far better stats, or if you prefer to compare their 4th seasons, that would be comparing Ant to Jordan's peak season of 35/6/6 and DPOY (50 wins with no help or coaching) - people don't realize that the Bulls' cast was never that good just like the Nuggets' or Bucks' cast turned out to not be that good for Jokic and Giannis - the difference is that MJ was able to win 6 chips with these "normal" teams of 1 franchise player, due to goat offensive production rate and goat defense simultaneously, while developing goat chemistry... And goat clutch to win all the close games
.

Jordan's dominance was better than Kareem's, Magic's, Bird's, and Lebron's, yet we're comparing a 22-year old that came up under a teammate's wing (KAT) and is inferior on both sides of the ball - let me know when he jogs up to the FT line and double-pumps like it's brushing his teeth.

And next season Ant will be 23, so that's when MJ averaged 37 to lead a 30-win team that lost it's top 2 options from the prior year to a .500 record - this was considered MVP in most people's minds over prime Magic but Magic was still awarded the MVP in a long-disputed vote..

MJ also deserved MVP in 90', 93', 97', and of course 89' (33/8/8 + goat upsets through the Eastern Playoffs and the only team to win games from the champion Bad Boys)

So let's see how Ant likes being compared to that... 😀

Imma let you finish, but who was better? The 2014 Heat or 2014 Spurs? The 2014 Heat or 1998 Jazz?

MJ is the GOAT, but pretending LeBron didn't run into greater buzzsaws is a bad look.

Let’s cut the bs .
Here what really happened .

First 2 season mj play off : 36 ppg / 5rb /6 ass /2 steal PER: 26 /ts% .562
Edward’s 21/22 years old : 31 ppg/ 5rb / 5 ass / 1 steal PER:18 /ts% .569

I’m taking MJ every single time and it’s not close ….
Let’s see next year what will happen for regular season since mj will have 2 complete seasons and again that bs 36 mean nothing when mj was hurts , coming back and couldn’t play for real for an entire season ….
And if the Edward’s trend continue …

And the ts% is such bs cause there wasn’t any 3 pts shooting in mj early career throughout the freakn league …
Per is a much better comparaison and we see the difference too .

at 23 MJ led his team to a sub-500 record? you're making my case for me. jordan averaged 37 that year jacking 30 shots a game. still at that age he hadn't honed much goat clutchness or WIM skills, evidenced by getting swept against the defending champ celtics on 41% shooting. contrast with 22yo ant who is already taking playoff games over at will, shooting 98% in clutch scenarios, posterizing his childhood hero, and owning defending champs so hard he sends their star guard into raging tizzies launching towels and heatpacks onto the court.

i fed ant's advanced stats and highlight clips into the NBA Career Simulator and it projects he wins 8 rangs, 6 MVPs, and collects the souls of over 350 opponents. that already puts him above mj. wemby's the only wildcard.

No one really believes Ant is the second coming of MJ. Don't take the bait.

No idea but all I know is the Jazz beat a similar younger team then the spurs 2013-14 and they win both time .

As for the Heat the Jazz beat early prime shaq surrounded by 3 all stars !
Correction swept …

What was the argument again ?

They were far better then what you alluded here ….
Ps: and again the Jazz did best the spurs 4-1 in 98 and Duncan was on that team .
A Duncan 98 was certainly better then Duncan in 2014 .
A team that actually won the title just the year after .

FWIW every all time great did end up vs all time great team .
Some just got extremely lucky for never having to face 2 all time great team in their own conference for years like Tim Duncan and MJ had to face ….
That is why personally I rather emphasis on accomplishments instead of failure .

Fallguy comparing prime MJ to 22 yo Edwards.

Amazing.

Fallguy - How much Edwards have you watched?

I don’t think anyone would argue that the first three years of Edward’s career were better than Jordan’s dude. That said, he’s taken a big leap this year and has a good chance to be the best player on a finals team.

You’ve written thousands of words on why MJs scoring and play style lead to winning and Lebrons doesn’t. At this point, which is Edwards more similar to?

I compared them at 22 years old here:

The GIF's posted earlier showed rookie or 2nd-year Jordan, and also Jordan's vastly superior stats at 22 years old (previous post)..

So now the issue is that Edwards won 57 games this year WITHOUT ACHIEVING A 20 PER, so he currently has far more help than any point in MJ's career - that's the point.

Clearly, the difference in casts is enormous between someone that needed 35/6/6 and DPOY to win 50 games, and a someone that didn't even need a 20 PER to win nearly 60..

Again, it was KAT's team until 2023, so comparing Ant to Jordan doesn't work because we're ignoring how much easier Ant's path is - Ant has a developed, 4th-year team by age 22, while MJ had a 1st year lottery team at 22.

You're basically saying: "Ant had 4 years to develop his team, so let's compare this to Jordan's 1st year, so then we can say 22-year Ant is winning more than 22-year Jordan.".. .

smh.. that's some bron-fan logic but don't worry because I'm getting ready to hop on the Ant bandwagon since it furthers MJ's GOAT standing... aka "mini-MJ" swept the team that owns Lebron - pretty good narrative imo.. And having an MJ-like shooting guard be the face of this league and without elite threes - it speaks volumes about what the real MJ would do - most people think he would have multiple 40 ppg seasons.

How much MJ have you watched?... How can you compare Ant's shot-making ability to his?... There isn't a single aspect of basketball where Jordan isn't superior and shot-making is probably among the biggest skill gaps.

You guys make a big deal about guys that are "good" and say they're as good as Jordan, but none of these guys are hitting the league like a tsunami the way Jordan did - none of them are as good as Jordan.

Again, Ant won 57 games this year and he didn't even have a 20 PER - MJ would 3-peat with his help

.
contested shot-making in the 6 to 12 foot range:

arm-extension-type layups that shorter guys with shorter arms and smaller hands can't do at any point in their career:

Who are the top 3 expert jump shooters in the game today?

michael jordan

It's funny that twog's MJ highlights always end up highlighting MJ's faults rather than strengths. MJ's finishing at the rim was obviously limited by the fact that he couldn't finish through contact very well, so you see all these attempts to dodge the contact, which leads to worse shots. MJ's vision wasn't that great and wasn't a willing passer especially early in his career, so you see him putting up contested prayers when he had multiple open teammates. MJ was also somewhat limited in terms of his ability to get separation through clean footwork or get past defenders with crisply executed moves (especially early on and compared to modern players), so you see him struggle to get past the defender in situations where a modern player could have easily done so and also put up a terrible improvised shot (which isn't particularly demonstrative of skill, lots of terrible players do this all the time) where a modern star wing would've created a clean step-back or a fadeaway.

One other thing that's easy to miss is that MJ is smaller (in terms of bulk) and is playing against smaller players (so his smallness is less of a handicap) than modern players. This means everyone looks more athletic than they actually are.

Again, this isn't fair to MJ because he didn't get to learn how to play basketball in a world where 8-year olds are able to see every single basketball move that's ever been invented and watch videos teaching them exactly how to replicate it. But here twog is talking as though somehow MJ was better at the fundamentals than modern star players, when it's really not that close.