Line check with flopped bottom boat at 1/3 vs 2 loose V's.
1/3. 9 handed. $500 max.
V1 / UTG - Mid-20's male. Not sure, but maybe Latino. Never seen him before. Seemed like a bit of a loose-passive rec-fish, playing too wide pre and too sticky post, but on an unbelievable heater, to include making quads TWICE in less than an hour. Haven't seen him bluff, but also haven't seen him do anything very aggressive for value. Sitting to hero's direct left, starting the hand around $800 eff, but doesn't stack his chips neatly, so hero isn't sure exactly how much he has.
V2 / BTN - 30'ish Asian male. Played with him once before this session. Super wide pre, especially in LP. Fairly sticky post. Super luck-box, always seeming to make some ridiculous hand on turn or river. Seems to think hero just never has a hand, and that I'm always bluffing. Never seen him bluff. He'll over-fold to check-raises, and tends to dial up the aggression as soon as he makes his hand, rather than slow-playing. Currently having a bad day. Possibly tilted. Started the hand with $455.
I've probably lost over $1k to these two V's collectively, when they show up with some marginal strength hand that most players would have folded pre or on the flop, and I either barreled into them with too-thin value, or I gave up with a bluff that might have gotten through if I just fired that last bullet (or maybe not, so I might have saved myself some money by not barreling).
Hero / BB - 50's white dude. TAG'ish, with lapses into LAG'ish. Haven't gotten out of line recently. Started the session stuck, but recently running well, getting close to even, starting this hand around $700.
OTTH...
V1 opens to $10 from UTG (a little smaller than what most people were opening, typically $12 or $15). Folds to BTN who calls. SB folds. Hero calls with 66 (suits not relevant).
FLOP ($30) - 996rb.
H x, V1 $15. BTN calls. H calls.
(Is anyone donking out here, or check-raising?)
TURN ($75) - 996 8xx (can't remember the suits, only that a BDFD comes in).
H donks $50 (yay? nay? different size?). V1 doesn't think too long before calling. BTN likewise doesn't think too long, and calls.
RIVER ($225) - 99683 (no flush completion).
H $150. V1 again doesn't tank before calling. V2 doesn't hesitate too long, then jams all in for his remaining $380. Hero almost vomits as he goes into the tank.
Hero? Anyone folding here? Anyone re-jamming?
I don't think V2 is ever bluffing here, and I was struggling to find worse value hands that would raise. Based on our previous history, I'd have expected him to raise trip 9's on flop or turn, and raise T7 on turn. I thought he might slow-play a weak 9x combo like T9 or 97 that blocked the straight draws, but wasn't sure he's thinking on that level.
I had no idea what V1 had, but didn't think he'd be opening UTG with any 9x holding, other than maybe A9s. Wasn't sure if he opens 88 or just limps in. I was mostly putting him on over-pairs that didn't know what to do when I donk bet turn, but might now fold to the BTN jam.
I've only ever folded a boat once that I can remember, and it was super-obvious that I was beat that time. But this seemed like a spot to possibly hero-fold.
Against more normal opponents, I'd be pretty sure I had V1 beat, and I could maybe make an argument for re-jamming to create a side-pot and recoup some of whatever I might be losing to V2.
Here, I wasn't sure if it was worth it against a passive V. I was thinking if I re-jam and V1 calls, I might get $250-ish from him, and this debacle will only end up costing me $210, whereas if I fold, it'll cost me $225. Or I might lose it all, and I'll want to go lay down in traffic.
...For me, with what I perceive as Doc's image from his posts, I don't think a C-R on flop drives these guys off. He's probably perceived as a bit laggy...
Edit: Just read the reveal...lol. No, I don't know how he gets there with 33 either. You did say they were sticky post, OMG. AA is a bit more understandable.
It's funny. I try to play tight, get worried opponents will think I'm a nit (I know, laughable on its face if you see how I play or read my posts here), then eventually it's like, "eff this. I'm bored. Time to get spicy..."
It's weird how often I'm hesitant to do something too aggro, considering how on brand it probably seems to my opponents. I should probably stop lying in my hand history OP's and just admit I'm only a straight jacket away from being a maniac.
I guess AA is a little more understandable, as far as getting to the river, but I think if he's going to just flat call my turn donk, he has to be done with it after BTN calls and I barrel river. Calling my river bet, and then over-calling the BTN jam with AA is like handing your credit card to my teenage son. You're not going to like what your money is buying or what it cost you.
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Thank you all for taking the time to look at this and give your thoughts.
Reveal...
Hero did NOT fold. Hero also didn't re-jam. Hero called.
Lol. Man I do the same thing doc. I give people way too much credit. You know how many times ive folded the best hand and by the time showdown comes i see some absolute nonsense shown down to scoop a huge pot. And many times ive thought someone was a decent player only to later see they have absolutely no clue and were just running good. Mind blowing. Im dropping down to 1/2 tonight, will go back to 2/3 next week.
I think this is a flop you can donk-bet as a BB. Check-raising is fine. Check-calling is kinda a Worst Of All Worlds play: you keep the pot small AND you set off alarm bells that you’ve smashed the flop.
As played, never folding the River for this price, especially at $1-$2, where no one considers relative hand strength.
Daniel Negreanu had a recent high stakes hand where he folded 99 on a T95TQ board to a River check-raise shove because he knew a pro would recognize Negs would always have at least a full house (after betting pot on the Turn and River) for value, and that, therefore, unless V was making an insane bluff, then Negs had to fold: he was losing to all the hands V would raise for value with on the River, since Negs has the second worst full house.
Similar hand except: you’re NOT playing against pros. You’re playing against Fish. They aren’t thinking about your hand at all.
Ive been struggling with that unpredictability lately. Its really hard to play against. I mean these guys are drooler level bad and i make so many folds with the best hand where i think no way am i good here, just like docs hand here illustrates.
Im talking about guy opens UTG to 10 and 3 players call, then BB 3bets to 30 lol. Then BB pots it on A K 9, gets 2 calls, pots it on T turn, 2 calls, pots it again on flush completing low card river, both players fold and the guy flips over 22. What?!?
Another one this guy shoves all in pre for his remaining 20, lady calls for remaining 18, another guy calls, and another guy calls. Flop K Q J, dont remember how it ran out after but the guy in position vs other remaining player potted flop, turn, and river w K2o and the guy oop scooped w K7s bc his kicker played. Like why tf was he betting like that w no side pot and a crap hand?
Ive been struggling with that unpredictability lately. Its really hard to play against. I mean these guys are drooler level bad and i make so many folds with the best hand where i think no way am i good here, just like docs hand here illustrates.
Im talking about guy opens UTG to 10 and 3 players call, then BB 3bets to 30 lol. Then BB pots it on A K 9, gets 2 calls, pots it on T turn, 2 calls, pots it again on flush completing low card river, both players fold and the guy flips over 22. What?!?
A
One thing that makes bad LLSNL players bad is that they all view hand strength in absolute terms instead of relevant terms--they bet solely on the strength of their own hand, with no thought given to anything else (the board, their number of opponents, the preflop action, etc). Which is one of the things that makes, say, over-pairs really tricky: when a guy shoves all-in on a 3-bet pot on a Jack-high board, you aren't just asking "is he bluffing or does he really have the set he's representing?" you have to ask "is he bluffing, does he actually have the set he's representing, or is he just doing this because he's bad enough to think Top Pair is the best hand?"
Obviously, these mistakes make us money in the long run. But...you do have to put up with some variance.
True. Sometimes I get tripped up giving my opponents too much credit, leading to MUBs.
I've also gone the other way, making hero calls because I think V has too many possible bluffs when it seems too obvious he's value betting the nuts in a spot where he should be playing more deceptively, and therefore he must be bluffing, but of course he's just doing exactly what it looks like, and I get shown the nuts.
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