LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

He didn’t reply because he didn’t have anything to copy/paste for the 6978th time.

I've watched hundreds of MJ's games (we're probably around the same age) and unlike you, I remember how his game and body evolved over time, whereas you either forgot due to poor memory or perhaps don't really know the game well enough to understand the differences.

When Jordan was down 0-2 in the 93' ECF, Game 3 was over after the 1st quarter - the Bulls were up 15 after the 1st quarter where MJ had 8 points and 6 assists (6 and 0 for Pippen)... So as usual, MJ carried the Bulls in the meaningful minutes when the game was contested, while the rest of the game was garbage time - that's why the intro to Game 4 said the supporting cast rallied around Jordan (here) - Jordan went on to drop 54 in Game 4 to disrupt the series - it forced the Knicks to throw the kitchen sink at him in Game 5, which led to ball movement.. So does that mean Jokic will go off for 54 and then get 20 dimes in Game 5?.. It's happened before for a defending champion and potential dynasty.

Bulls were up 11. For those playing at home 11 point lead at quarter time is over.

Also for the lols I watched the first quarter. MJ wasn't good. Brick after brick. You know he's allowed to have bad games and he can still be the GOAT.

MJ has less bad and more great playoff games than Lebron. Lebron just wasn't that dude.

I would absolutely love to see the analysis of this. I've not done it either but I would bet my house on Lebron having more "great" playoff games than Jordan, considering he has played more than 100 more and has been an elite player throughout.

I would also wager my house that he had more bad playoff games than Jordan as you say.

LBJ - 11 games with 45+ points (1 with 50+)
MJ - 23 games with 45+ points (8 with 50+)

LBJ - 30 games with < 20 points (2 < 10) 36% games won
MJ - 6 games with < 20 points (0 < 10) 33% games won

LBJ's - 90 games with 5+ TOs (27 with 7+)
MJ - 43 games with 5+ TOs (7 with 7+)

LBJ - 24 games with 4+ steals
MJ - 35 games with 4+ steals

LBJ - 24 games with 3+ blocks
MJ - 12 games with 3+ blocks

Jordan is the only constant in the thread title - Lebron was defeated and Ant is next tomorrow night .. Wemby was always a joke and not serious.. Many 20 and 21 year olds were far superior - he isn't "on track" at all

So again, everyone is compared to Jordan - the only constant in the thread title

13 points by Jokic is a bad game

8 points by Lebron is a bad game.. Or 6 points.

Accordingly, 22/8/11 isn't a bad game, especially when Jordan ended the game in the 1st quarter - I watched that game - it was common knowledge BEFORE the game that the Knicks would mail it in and focus on Game 4.. They knew that they wouldn't go up 3-0 in Chicago Stadium..

Again, this was common knowledge at the time.. The Knicks were going to come out hard but if the Bulls jumped out to a lead, they would conserve energy for the next game.. This is common strategy in many playoff series.

Maybe this was a bad decision, but it's the decision the Knicks made and it's common strategy in many playoff series to mail in a specific game to save energy.

And again, the only quarter where the game was contested saw Jordan get 8 points and 6 assists, compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen, so MJ clearly made the statement and ran the show.. That's why the intro to Game 4 said the cast rallied around Jordan.

The issue is that everyone is carried compared to Mike, even Jokic:

1993 ECF

Jordan................. 32.2... 6.2.... 7.0... 2.5... 1.0... 2.2 tov... 113 ortg
Pippen................ 22.0... 6.5.... 4.0... 1.8... 0.5... 4.0 tov... 103 ortg

^^^ this is near Pippen's playoff high and among the closest that Pippen ever got to Jordan in a series

Accordingly, Jordan carried the Bulls in virtually every series, such as 10-30 ppg more than Pippen in every series, while also averaging more APG for RS, PO and Finals.. Jordan also got equal or more DPOY votes for 7 of 9 seasons...

People underrate the ability to play goat offense and defense simultaneously, but only Wilt and MJ did it for their entire prime - it takes goat energy.

So you've never watched a full game by Ant. Sounds like you haven't even watched a full quarter.

But excellent work in finding some highlight gifs of MJ.

smh

You've watched hundred of games, yet you cannot articulate the specific differences between MJ and Ant - you think they play similarly

You barely know what a jab step is (see the post below for the best ever)

Show me a better jab step:

Show me a better hop step:

Show me a better drop-step:

Show me a better first step:

Waiting

Best upfake?

FUNDAMENTALS - the goat drop-step, hop-step, first-step, jab-step and upfake, .

Where's Ant's drop-step, hop-step, jab-step or first step like Jordan shown above?... How about an update? Fundamentals?... lol.. we done w/ Ant

.
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:

1985...... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)

3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS - regular line only (HIGHLIGHTED BELOW):

53-135 (39.2%)

TLDR: From 85-93', Jordan shot 36.4% on threes in games that he had 3+ attempts (539 attempts), and 39% in series with 3+ attempts (regular line only) - aka there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes and whenever he had above "bailout" volume (extremely low volume - only bailouts taken)... Since MJ always shot well at today's volumes despite no practice (36-39%), he would be elite in today's game WITH practice (40% or more).

It's statistical fact that at today's volumes of 3+ attempts, MJ was a better 3-point shooter than Ant and simply took bailout volume most seasons, which deflated his efficiency.. See the stats in previous post

by fallguy k

Show me a better drop-step:

Literally none of these are drop steps - was 90's basketball so bad that anyone could play D1 without literally having any understanding of the fundamentals or were you uniquely unskilled? Do you not know what a drop step is?

Also, this is all basic stuff that is mastered by all kinds of youth players that won't sniff NBA and none of this is particularly advanced from an execution standpoint (in fact, you can see that his footwork is often a bit sloppy, especially when he was younger). Like how behind are you to think that these are amazing from a skill standpoint? What stands out here is athleticism compared to other NBA players at the time, not skill.

Twog's rambling ironically reveals a massive gap between 90's basketball and today's basketball - how can a person whose identity revolves around basketball and went as far as D1 basketball think that super basic stuff that can be flawlessly executed by all kinds of 13 year olds is some pinnacle of basketball skill?

Well that's 90's basketball for you.

Show me where Ant finishes on that level off a 1-step vertical (drop-step)?

It doesn't exist.

And you'll claim that a 1-step vertical isn't a drop-step (it is) but regardless you're missing the point - Ant lacks the goat skill and power off a one-step vertical that MJ had,... Look at all those crazy finishes that MJ had with zero ball-dominance or setup time required - THAT'S how you elevate teammates - you don't dominate the ball like a jackass... And of course we're talking about perimeter players - surely there are bigs with more powerful and dominant drop-steps.

So again, show me where Ant demonstrates a drop-step, hop-step, jab-step or first-step on the level of what I showed for MJ?.. These are fundamentals that Ant mostly lacks.. His first step is good but it requires set-up time - he doesn't know how to explode from a triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position) or post-up position, so his first-step is unpolished, in addition to being slower.

Ultimately, Ant is just like all the other modern lebron-bots - they dominate the ball at the expense of teammates, so that when the team loses, it's blamed on teammates instead of his weak brand of ball and inability to elevate teammates.. It's exactly like the 09' or 10' Playoffs with Lebron getting upset massively, or Giannis, Embiid, and Luka losing with good rosters - all these losers - none of them have good fundamentals and understand how to play the game like low time of possessions players (Curry, Jokic, MJ), who knew how to elevate teammates..

Tbh, I know KAT was hurt a couple years ago, but he's basically stunk and declined since Ant has taken over the team, so once again we don't see the teammate development for Ant that we saw with MJ - MJ's teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside him, while today's ball-dominators and fancy dribblers see teammates crater...

Ant, Lebron, Luka, Embiid, Giannis - all these perennial losers - they all have ball-dominance and high set-up times, which produces weaker chemistry that hurts teammate performance .. None of them have low hold-time like the winners do (Curry, Jokic, MJ), so their casts don't perform as well.. It's ball101 that casts need great chemistry to play great, but unfortunately, guys that need a lot of set-up time prevent this chemistry, so they can't elevate teammates.. This inability by Ant, Lebron and Luka to elevate teammates is misperceived as them not having enough "help" or on-paper talent.. So when their 5th or 7th year organic juggernauts and league favorites fail, it's mistakenly blamed on lack of talented cast instead of weak brand of ball and fundamentals by the 1st option.

Today's players need a ton of set-up time and ball-dominance specifically because they lack the fundamentals shown above that allow scoring with less ball-dominance, aka first-step, jab step, and drop-step - all these things allow players to finish with less ball-dominance... A great drop-step allows zero ball-dominance and super-quick, "big-man" finishing from the guard position - by turning a normally ball-dominant position into a quick-finishing position, it increases the ball movement and chemistry capacity of the team.

.
Casts need great chemistry to play great but modern guys have high set-up times

Ant, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Embiid - all these perennial losers have high set-up times at the expense of teammates and chemistry.

So when they lose with top seeds, it's mistakenly blamed on needing more help/talent instead of needing better chemistry and brand of ball that elevates teammates

In contrast to the aforementioned ball-dominators, players that achieved perennial winning for various stretches had low set up times and didn't dominate the ball (Curry, Jokic, MJ), so they have better chemistry and better-performing casts.

It's amazing that Jordan was blamed for losing with rookie teams that won 30 games, but when the league favorites of modern stars lose, it's blamed on needing more on-paper talent - this includes on-paper favorites (preseason favorites).

So the modern media are DUMB FRAUDS - both things - they're both dumb and frauds, specifically because they've started this horrible trend of never blaming the top guy and his ability to have great chemistry and elevate teammates - instead, the cast is always blamed.

MJ was required to "elevate teammates", so he developed great chemistry to win with a "normal" cast, but today's stars aren't being held to the same standard - their losses are excused due to lack of help, regardless of how stacked the team was or how long they've been together, or how bad the star's brand of ball and chemistry is and failure to elevate teammates.. It's horseshit

Wait a minute - you guys aren't going to claim that Ant "just lost to a better team" when he loses right?... After saying his team was far superior when they were up 2-0?.. See how that doesn't make sense?.. And that's where the chemistry part comes so it makes sense - Ant, Luka, Lebron, and Embiid ar perennial losers because of high set up times that prevents great chemistry and therefore prevents the best teammate performance.. Massive deficits in team assists support my claim of inferior brand of ball for Ant, Lebron and Luka.. Heck, the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is massive deficits in team assists

Anyone can go re-watch Ant's 44 points on the highlights - they're all "down-hill" transition 3's or at-rim - he had 1 catch-and-go in the half court I think in the 2nd quarter and another mid-range shot later - that's about it... Otherwise, his game is extremely predictable - the Wolves will give it to him to bring the ball up court in transition and he will go for a 3 or layup.. .Rinse repeat... it's a higher set-up time and more predictable than the styles of Curry, MJ or Jokic, who hold the ball far less and generate goat ball movement - they have goat sophistication with their team offense and their non-ball-dominant style allows this higher strategic capacity... Otoh, Ant is vastly inferior compared to Jordan at the non-ball-dominant skills posted in gifs above (jab step, drop-step, first-step, off-ball), so his team's chemistry isn't good enough to elevate teammates and the team to championship level.. He still has to learn how to elevate teammates, but unfortunately, today's ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, Embiid, etc never do and need to start teaming up together, and still mostly lose... it's sad.. then the media blames lack of help for the loss, instead of the player's inability to elevate teammates via great chemistry... Again, massive deficits in team assists support my claim of inferior brand of ball for Ant, Lebron and Luka.. Heck, the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is massive deficits in team assists