Easy call or bad bluff catcher?
1/2, Saturday evening.
Villain and hero are both semi-regs at this casino. We played maybe once/ twice before. Villain is tag and is capable of barreling 3 street with bluff.
Hero opened to 8 with A♦J♣ from mid position.
Villain on my direct left flat. All other players folded. Heads up.
Flop (19) 3♦6♦8♥
Hero checked, V bet 7, hero called.
Turn (33) A♣
Hero checked, V bet 20, hero called.
River (73) 3♣ paring the board.
Hero checked, V tanked 30 seconds and bet 60.
With the A♦ in our hand which blocks a lot of bluffs, is it a bad call?
It will be very much appreciated if anyone having solver let me know what solver suggests to do on all three streets.
Thanks in advance!
18 Replies
How would villain ever be bluffing with the A♦? Even if you had T♦ most people prefer not to triple the missed flush draw so you're not necessary blocking many of their bluffs
0EV spot I wouldn't call just because someone tripled off before with a bluff
Interesting spot, online this is just a snap call always.
Live I think I still call but it's closer. That 3o OTR is amazing for you and Villain is representing <10 value combos so I'm on board with a call.
The 30 second tank is good for calling as well. I don't think value is taking 30 seconds on average.
Interested in results.
I honestly think AJo with the Ace of diamonds is a more mandatory call than AJo with the J of diamonds, just JdQd/JdTd/etc are more natural bluffs than anything with the Ace of diamonds.
But both are snaps to me because
1) They’re among the strongest hands we can have here;
2) The river blocks his likeliest set;
3) We are now beating the two 86s (that would likely bluff this River)
I would sigh and call.
Seems pretty standard the way you played it.
You check the flop with most of your AJo. If you want to bet, the best candidate will be a hand with the A♦ because it blocks a significant portion of his calling range that contains A♦ and allows you to bluff on any ♦ on future streets.
If you bet the flop with AJo, the standard play is to continue betting on high cards like Q, K, T, or any diamond, and give up on other cards.
If you check with AJo, then you x fold most of your AJo except those containing a diamond (A♦ J or A J♦ ). AJo without a diamond is a standard x fold here. AJo hands with a ♦ can be played bet/x call, depending on the player.
Once you check-call:
A and J turn cards are best for you.
♦ are also good for you.
Cards like 8, 6, and 3 are okay for you. You can make some x call on these cards. bc they don't improve your opponent range significantly.
Any other turn is horrible for you, and you should give up.
OTR you should x fold on very scary cards like a ♦ or maybe even 9 or 7, as these could improve your op range.
As played:
It's actually close. You could even find a fold against an OMC or if you have some reads. You only beat bluffs here. If the person is capable of bluffing -call, if not - fold
Thank you so much!
Interesting spot, online this is just a snap call always.
Live I think I still call but it's closer. That 3o OTR is amazing for you and Villain is representing <10 value combos so I'm on board with a call.
The 30 second tank is good for calling as well. I don't think value is taking 30 seconds on average.
Interested in results.
After I got home I gave this hand a second thought and V had at least 13 value combos:
1 x 33
3 x 66
3 x 88
As3s, Ah3h,
As6s, Ah6h,
As8s, Ah8h.
I don't think V would play a worse Ax two pairs than ours taking this line.
There are certainly more bluff combos than the values. Yeah but as TrippleBerryJam said, hands like 45, 57, 79, Kxdd they may not barrel river again. In that 30 seconds tank, V must have had a think what hero called his turn bet with.
I'd call. Our hand is fairly under-repped. Sometimes we'll lose to AQ or AKo, but we'll catch him betting worse for value or bluffing often enough.
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After I got home I gave this hand a second thought and V had at least 13 value combos:
1 x 33
3 x 66
3 x 88
As3s, Ah3h,
As6s, Ah6h,
As8s, Ah8h.
I don't think V would play a worse Ax two pairs than ours taking this line.
There are certainly more bluff combos than the values. Yeah but as TrippleBerryJam said, hands like 45, 57, 79, Kxdd they may not barrel river again. In that 30 seconds tank, V must have had a think what hero called his turn bet with.
I don't think the 4 combos of A3s/A6s are always betting flop though so they are discounted.
And Villain can't have Ah8h because it is blocked by the board.
Usually value bets are faster than 30 seconds imo. Bluffs take longer because Villain's are trying to figure out proper sizing and calculate your range or hands they are trying to get to fold.
Do you mind giving us the results?
I don't think the 4 combos of A3s/A6s are always betting flop though so they are discounted.
And Villain can't have Ah8h because it is blocked by the board.
Usually value bets are faster than 30 seconds imo. Bluffs take longer because Villain's are trying to figure out proper sizing and calculate your range or hands they are trying to get to fold.
Do you mind giving us the results?
Good point on the A8hh.
It hasn't been 24 hours yet so I can't post the result just now.
I will surely post the reveal tonight or tmr.
OK here is the reveal:
Spoiler
I planned to check-call the river subject to a ＜70% pot bet, so V's bet was bigger than I thought, I thought for 1 minute and threw in a call.
V had Q9dd. I won.
I think V's bluff was reasonably good (I tanked for so long) because: 1. A lot of the bluffs I have seen are not very thought-through, so people just threw in 3x 25 chips, or 2x 25 chips, instead of 2 x 25 chips + 2 x 5 chips. 2. A lot of the bluffs I have seen are capped at 75% pot. 3. Betting time wise, I don't think tanking for 30 seconds is a tell. For a lot of fishy players who do not make any effort in standardising their betting time especially on the river, you can see this as a tell, but at the same time, are fishy players going to barrel the river with a busted draw with above 1. and 2.?
I won the pot but I am not sure it was +ev enough to call that river bet. More importantly, I think me checking the turn is not good, because if someone's betting on a draw on the flop, they are probably going to check back the turn to see a free river, and there are a lot of river cards we have to fold to (potential straight, flush, two pairs). That's why I posted the discussion.
Thanks for the results
My problem with using terms like 0EV OTR is that this hand history doesn't even fall into the GTO Framework because of preflop. A solver is never developing a cold calling range in these positions plus vs a 4x open and if it did, Q9dd would never be in there.
So you can deduce that if he has Q9dd that you made the correct call.
With regard to the turn spot, it probably would be a donk spot if we did some nodelocking since the Ace OTT is so much better for your range.
Cool hand.
We've under-repped our hand and V has natural bluffs. Easy call I think. V can have AT/A9 types of hands as well as all kinds of combo draws that all whiffed and at 1/2 never discount somebody having 68 here. I think we are good at least half the time which is way more than needed.
I feel like our hand calls 100%, but an AJo with the Jd might be closer to just 50%.
Low stakes players arent that aggressive except for that they way overbluff the river, so its a call imo. I dont love the tank but whatever.
i think flop plays much better as a xr
I feel like our hand calls 100%, but an AJo with the Jd might be closer to just 50%.
This means you are using blockers to determine whether you should call or a fold. Except it's overbluffed so you don't base your decision on blockers---->you only base your decision on blockers when the line is GTO.
This is why we always call river and don't care about blockers.
