LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

If Starks doesn't go 2-18 in Game 7, the Knicks chip in 94.

Mj made him go 2-18 because he's the GOAT.

His shadow.

I mean. .

What can I say

It isn't me.. It's bball 101- ball movement has the capacity for great development of chemistry over time, while ball-domination is BAD chemistry and therefore relies on talent (more help).. We see that ball-domination works until the championship level, where it has a lottery record

Carry on in your state of lesser enlightenment.. One can only guess that your lower understanding of this topic and easy swaying of your brain translates to all all areas of life. Misperceiving basically everything..

But again. Carry on.. What do I know.. What do I understand

Sounds like you're coming around to the triangle offense.

The funniest part is that now we'll watch Nick Wright, Broussard and the rest of the Klutch minions do a complete 180 and say the Celtics are an all-time team.

They aren't, but we've seen ordinary teams like the 14' Spurs make ball-domination look like a beginner brand of ball that it is.. Now we're seeing another ordinary team embarrass ball-domination - because the Celtics ARE ordinary... Remember?? Tatum stinks.... Right??

The triangle has been roundly rejected and a colossal embarrassment everywhere it's been used - a laughing stock where the players are like "wait.. what???.. wtf is this garbage?? Is coach serious??. Get this trash out of here"

Only MJ or his clone won with it, and it took the GOAT tolerate the offense to begin with and lay the blueprint for Kobe - the GOAT was so great that Kobe is basically a continuation of MJ's legacy.. Similarly, it looks like Luka's impending lottery record on the championship level will be a continuation of LeBron-ball

With great chemistry development in hand, Tatum can just sit back and let his team's superior chemistry do the job against this weak Finals opponent - the Mavs are a version of bron-ball, aka the worst Finals record brand of ball... So when it's time to take over, Tatum will be FRESH... Ball-dominant opponents are SO easy to beat in the Finals because they lose the attrition battle... The ball-domination lets defenses rest, so they have more capacity for offense - more capacity to "get hot", which is what we always saw from opponents against LeBeginner-ball

Tatum 16 pts on 6/16 shooting, 6 turnovers.

“Ordinary” Celtics third highest net rating of all time

Fraudguy doesn’t know ball

6-16 for 16 points with 6 turnovers = high level basketball, chemistry, ball movement.

fraudball delivering fraud.

Lebron first 3 games of 2013 Finals:

16.7 ppg on 39%

(locked up by Diaw and allowed to take open jumpers.. lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Ray to force Game 7. . Overall, the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the series due to zero plus-minus for Lebron in the series and negative net rating)

Luka would dominate MJ. He is better at every aspect of the game and is bigger and stronger.

This may be why stats show that LeBron is so good on average, but he seems to win less than expected in high leverage playoff situations. He’s fantastic at exploiting poor to average defenses because he gets a lot of efficient shots in the paint. But against elite defenses in the playoffs and finals, teams are better at shutting that down….:

4 rings in 21 seasons vs. 6 rings in 15 seasons with elite ball movement and mid-range game.

2 rings rather than the predicted 7+ with Miami superteam.

2016 was great (one season out of 21). But oddly Cleveland was a huge pre-season favorite over Golden State that year, indicating that maybe those teams were actually pretty closely matched and perhaps LeBron’s style caused them to underperform, until they played a hobbled Curry and Golden State squad in the finals.

Interestingly, I don’t recall any Jordan-led squads underperforming expectations in the playoffs.

Maybe you have some good points fallguy. Keep up the good work.

1st Finals

Luka........ 1 APG
MJ.......... 11 APG

So calm down.

People forget that Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers and thru half their chips (85-93' vs 06-14') - lebron didn't start to average more assists than MJ in the playoffs until 2015 when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone.

MJ mastered the ball-domination skillset within 3 days when he was called the best point guard in the league after just a few games at the position in 1989.. Then he averaged 11 APG in his first Finals.. Anyone can hold the ball for a long time and rack up assists - it's the easiest way to play and every playground king plays that way.. It works until you get to the championship level.

But back to Luka - MJ already proved superior to bigger guys than Luka like Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Grant Hill, etc - tons of guys..

MJ was simply vastly superior to Luka and all these guys at every aspect of scoring the basketball.. MJ's goat PPG was achieved with the most scoring diversity of all-time - he wasn't just a "down-hill" ball-dominator like Luka, although MJ was superior at this anyway due to goat quickness, goat power generated at the rim, and shot-making diversity..

Magic said "his strength is like a big man's - he's the strongest guard - i'm talking body-wise - to ever play."... And the eye test backs this up with MJ bullying defenders more than Luka.

Ultimately, MJ could average 30-40 playing like Luka as a ball-dominator, OR he could average 30-40 playing like Reggie Miller off-ball... And everything in between.. So his game proved to be less predictable than perennial Finals losers like Lebron and Luka (high-scoring ball-dominators).

Rodman wasn't a "finisher" that "punished" defenses - he literally made the Bulls and his teams play 4 on 5 offensively - that's the kiind of offensive player he was... He averaged 3 ppg for a reason (during the 97' Playoffs for example) because he couldn't finish basic stuff if there was a modicum of defensive resistance or anyone in the area - that's the kind of player that he was at 35 years old on the Bulls - he was never a "finisher" that could "punish" defenses... lmao

Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so MJ won titles with 3 different PF's - Horace, Rodman and Kukoc - they were all role players, while Lebron needed all-time PF's like AD, Bosh or Love and then all-time-scoring closers like Wade or Kyrie - this is the ridiculous amount of talent that a weak brand of ball and chemistry requires.. (i.e. bron-ball, luka ball).

Finally, your comparison of Pippen to Tatum is ridiculous - Pippen lacks "franchise player" scoring ability and is infact "just a dunker" and nothing outside the system.. Accordingly, a team lacks sufficient talent to be a contender if everyone on the team is a worse scorer than Pippen - let that sink in... If everyone on a team is a weaker scorer than a simple dunker like Pippen, then the team will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a ready-made and fully-developed 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95' - they were borderline .500 before MJ returned - Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine of all-time and had a nothing-team in less than 18 months...

Ultimately, any time in history where a player averaged 30 ppg for a playoff run and the next-best player on the team averaged 20 or less, or any time there has been a massive chasm in scoring between 1st and 2nd option for a Finals and playoffs, this ring has been considered a goat-level ring and all-time carry-job such as 94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq, 03' Duncan, 11' Dirk, 84' Bird, 19' Kawhi, 21' Giannis, 22' Curry, and Jordan's 6 rings - the stats confirm that his 6 rings are equal or greater than all these rings especially when we consider that Jordan's goat offensive carry-job was complimented by goat defense.... (and also co-leading or leading the assists for every run, although this is less important in general and means little because ball movement schemes determine assist-levels).

In 1998, Jordan made 700+ jumpers, which no one has ever done except 97' Jordan and then Kobe.. This volume of 700 made jumpers is nearly twice the volume of Lebron's highest volume season, and nearly 50% higher than Curry's highest-volume season of jumpshooting,

So it's clear that Jordan and Kobe could handle the biggest jumpshooting burden BY FAR, which allowed their team the greatest capacity to end possessions well and via ball movement.. Their capacity for goat ball movement allowed goat chemistry and therefore instant dynasties with the least talent ever needed for dynasties, aka just 1 non-elite-producing all-star.

carry on

Good point again, fallguy. It’s this versatility that made him so hard to predict and game plan against. Which is probably why his teams did so well in the playoffs and finals… going 6 for 6 when he had a solid team around him, or wasn’t unretiring from baseball.

LeBron’s passing is impressive, but honestly having that one guy that can put pressure on your defense in so many different ways even without passing is just so hard to defend against. And Jordan did it with such an absurdly low turnover rate too, which is a huge edge in close games. E.g. playoffs and finals games. Again probably why he went 6 for 6 in the finals. In only 15 seasons — one of those he lost from a broken foot. 2 others he was old and unretiring after 3 years and another returning at the end of the season from playing baseball. Pretty absurd when you think about it.

Yeah variance is one thing and it’s always possible that can explain someone’s success. But when you’re BOTH individually that good and your team that successful, and by such a huge margin, there are probably actual fundamental reasons for that.

Good posts fallguy. Keep on fighting the good fight.

Are Lebron or guys that played on his team the only guys with more than 3 Finals appearances to have losing Finals records? (3-pointer history)

Is that a fact?

If so, what better evidence is there of a brand of ball and chemistry that produces low team ceilings/Finals records?

I predict that Luka will join Lebron and his cronies - put money on luka having a losing finals record NOW

Two guys who never chipped without Phil and the triangle

Imagine that upon entering the NBA, you were good enough to win and be unbeatable with the worst, losingest and least-liked offense of all-time....... and then 30 years later, nascent fans said you "needed" this offense and couldn't win without it.

and you had already nearly beaten the champs with nothing in 89' and were headed towards titles in your prime regardless before Phil ever got there..

Imagine crediting someone with the timing that Phil had - it's right there in the historical record that he took over as a 1st-timer during peak MJ and then peak Shaq, yet you're like "it was phil".

That's the kind of misinformation and fake news that MJ's legacy must deal with, smh... Yet he's still viewed as goat in the latest poll even after Lebron has peaked now that he broke scoring record and 40k pts - it's only downhill from here.

.
Full Thread Cliffs:

In the history of 3-pointer basketball, Lebron or his teammates are the only guys with a losing Finals record over a meaningful sample (4+ Finals), aka bron-ball is the only losing brand in Finals history over a meaningful sample.

The reason that a losing brand was allowed to make so many Finals is because it was a manufactured Finals path by putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision").

There's no better evidence of a brand and chemistry that produces low team ceilings/Finals records than bron-ball being the only loser over a meaningful sample of NBA Finals.

Ultimately, the "ball-dominant" or "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it lacks the capacity for ball movement or the great chemistry required of great-performing casts, aka great teams.. Since the down-hill skillset can't rely on chemistry to win, it always needs more talent (more help).
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All right I see bolded text so that means the thread is over.

fallguy has won.

Let's lock it up now.

Imagine crediting all of LeBron's success to Wade, Kyrie, and AD.

I don't for a second believe that MJ and Kobe only have their rings because of Phil and the triangle, but you can show me the receipts of either chipping without it. By your logic, they only chipped because of Phil and the triangle.

I don't think he's gonna change his mind so maybe just enjoy the finals

No one on the internet changes their mind

And I'd rather watch Dodgers-Yankees