Angle? Bad ruling? Both?

Not unless there's a specific house rule that says it does.

Sounds very much like an angle to me. I'm OK with holding him to a call of the all-in as a best interest of the game ruling but technically he didn't call and should have the option to fold.

Villain is clearly angling here. Almost all of the time angles are within the rules and are successful specifically because they are within the rules. But this is slightly different.

When Villain says pot and puts out 8 or 9 pinks and Hero says All in and then Villain exposes his hand Villain is breaking a tournament rule. By exposing your hand before everyone is all in (or before everyone has called at Showdown) there is typically a one round penalty that gets applied after the hand. The hand is not declared dead (unless it has happened before and the Floor has told Villain that if he does it again his hand will be declared dead which I have never seen happen)

However, once Hero turns over his hand Villain can say that he didn't call, that he was in fact going to fold and he was just showing Hero his hand as he was folding. If Villain had stopped the dealer from dealing the river by saying he folded there is a very good chance that the Floor would have to rule that Villain is allowed to fold and then give Villain a one round penalty (where he can't play a hand for a full round) for turning over his hand before he said "Fold".

In this case because Villain didn't say "Fold" before the dealer puts out the river it could look like Villain was actually calling even though he didn't say anything and didn't put out any more chips.

Specifically because Villain couldn't win the hand based on the river card, there easily could have been a ruling that Villain is allowed to fold because he never said "call" or put in any more chips to verify the call and his intent wasn't to see the river card as part of his angle.

I am typically happy when a Floor rules against an angleshot even if technically the angle could be ruled within the rules.

What I would recommend in the future is not turning over your hand until the other player has said "call" or has put out at least one chip to verify the call. You may not be as lucky the next time.

He turned over his hand when facing a raise and didn't put in additional chips or state any additional action, then I'm ruling that villain folded his hand.

Not a fold, but a potential penalty for exposing his hand before action is complete. I'm not making him put in the last 6k unless he's been warned for angling previously.

Hero needs to protect their action. Never turn over your hand without pausing to verify the hand is actually over, especially in PLO where people often put out more chips than they're allowed to bet.

Dealer should have stopped everything to see if your stack was bigger than the bet and asked villain whether they want to call or fold. Sometimes things happen too fast to do this before both players turn over their cards but it certainly should have been done before putting out the river.

I think he was angling too. And, yeah, I wasn't hero in this situation. Hero was player to my right. Hero was even on a first name basis with villain, because when he said it looks like an angle, he addressed him by his first name.

This particular villain is a successful tournament player with over 400K in live earnings. He knows what he was doing (angling).

When he stated "Full house is good",with the voice inflection he used, he was clearly conceding that he was beat in the hand. And I'm sure if villain didn't have a boat there he would have gladly dragged the pot.

When I play with him in the future, which I'm sure I will, I'll make sure to protect my hand, and ensure his actions are clear.

Eff him basically.

The Lodge Round Rock does a superior job of levying penalties for out-of- turn action and other rule violations. This is an avenue where Champions Houston can improve, because they don't penalize out-of-turn action in tournaments as well as they could be. Champions Houston is still probably one of the best places to play in Houston.

Thanks for your in depth response.

Whether or not it was an angle, the ruling was horrible imho. He needs to announce call, and the dealer should of immediately taken control and asked him are you calling or folding (I know it probably happened too fast in a not so perfect world). This happens every day when people know they're beat and fold face up plus it's plol too so of course he knows you have a FH.

If the dealer didn't ask him "are you calling??" I would of just ask him myself BEFORE tabling my hand.

Hero needs to learn not to jump the gun in these spots but at least you were rewarded for your mistake though so it turned out good for you in the end.

Depends on timing of things could be implied all in our could not be.

If the dealer is slowly burning you might be able to say "stop" and tell them that action is on you. In regular speed that might already be pretty difficult unless you have eyes on the dealer the whole time. In this situation it might have been even faster because one player is drawing dead.

1. 99% it was an angle but angles are within the rules
2. V did not call, thus premature river, and V has option to fold or call the all in but Vs previous bet stands.
3. Because of 2 it is a bad floor ruling esp since TDA doesn’t have a best interest rule.
4. But V is subject to a penalty for premature exposing his cards

It's a card room in Texas, they can basically do what they want.

Also, TDA does have a best interest rule:

[QUOTE="TDA Rule #1"]The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.[/QUOTE]

Literally Rule 1.

I mean it’s definitely not a “by the letter of the law” ruling, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. And if it makes angler so mad he never comes back well… it can’t be that bad of a ruling lol

While Accepted Action (Rule #49) technically only applies to Players who have Called, but received the incorrect amount, I would toss those words into a Ruling in this case. By making the "Full House good" statement and tabling his holding (as you would at Showdown) the V in this case has presented behavior of a Player 'Accepting Action' from the all-in Player.

I will say that the timing of everything can be considered .. and I definitely thought about the fact that the River may have come out early. Considering that there are no Rivers that can 'save' the V this really comes down to whether or not there's an issue with the Call or No Call.

Certainly there's an argument to be made that V was only making a courtesy tabling of his holding before he was going to muck .. that is another issue of timing. As well as the timing of the statement made after the River came out.

By the letter of the Rules ..
1) Both Players tabled their holdings before the pot was made right .. local rules, NEVER a penalty without first a warning in majority of rooms. Killing a live hand in Poker is VERY difficult to do as rule infractions are usually handled once the hand is complete and pot pushed.
2) The Dealer moved forward without making the pot right and/or verifying V action, both of which would've reduced the potential 'angle' opportunity.

3) River was prematurely dealt .. back up action to Turn with action on V (who will now fold .. change coming)
4) Floor put in very tough spot which will come down to how the story is presented. If the Floor rules that the River needs to be replaced, then IMO they need to back up the action to the V as well. It's either 'accepted action' or a premature River .. can't have it both ways.

5) This is not 'horrible' or otherwise no matter which way the Floor rules. GL

The floor's in a tough spot because they didn't see exactly how things went down, and as others said it's all about the timing and whether the player with the flush was accepting the action.

Clearly the dealer took the player's action to mean that he was calling, so I tend to agree with the floor who likely considered it "accepted action."

The ambiguity could have been avoided though if the player with the full house would have clarified, "is that a call?" before tabling his hand.

Angle 100%. If his flush wins he says "Of course I called".

Floor has dealt with this guy before?

This is literally one of the most frustrating positions to be in as a dealer. Player 1 bet, player 2 raises by thowing in an absurd amount of chips (that more than covers player 1), but is far too much for a legal raise. Player 1 puts the rest of his chips in.

The dealer is in a no win situation.

By thowing in an absurd amount of chips that cover player one, 95% of the time, player one is indicating he wants to get it all in. If the dealer tries to clarify the action, he is mostly looked at as an idiot. Of course everyone wants to get it in. Dealer is dumb.

If the dealer doesn't clarify, he is mostly right in assuming it is all going in on both sides. However, some small percentage of the time, someone will angle and take advantage of the confusion.

It is unfortunate, but a dealer has to absolutely be willing to look like an idiot here to clarify the action. There will be plenty of players who think he is a moron because the action is kind of obvious, however his job is to get it right, not look smart.

I haven't seen it before, but he's a regular, and seems to be treated pretty well by floor and other staff. I always kinda expected he was a dirty player.

I remember he just sat down once to play in a BigO tournament at Prime Social and seemed shocked to find it was a split pot hi/lo game. He acted like he'd never played hi/lo before. I put the timeline together when his hendon mob showed cashes in hi/lo variants prior to that date.

I'm glad I saw this, pretty much confirmed my assessment of his character in poker.

To be fair, pretending you don’t know how to play a hi/lo is a pretty common joke among regs. So he might have been doing some light humor/angle. Just like saying “guess it’s time to go home”.

Sounds like good ol' H-Town to me...def an angle, this happens pretty regularly at large cash games to get hand information from someone unsuspecting or already excited about the hand, ruling is almost always "player did not state call, player can fold."

Angle 100%. Good ruling based on the for the integrity of the game; if he was a newbie and there was doubt about whether he was angle shooting not a good ruling.

Agree, the player with the flush created the confusion/situation with his two actions of 1) sticking in way more chips than a legal raise; 2) behaving as though he is calling while he has chips out on the table sufficient to call. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Technically speaking villain should have the chance to call or fold. With that said, this seems like a pretty clear angle and I am totally fine with Rule #1 being enforced here and holding villain to the full amount.

Hero and Dealer share some responsibility here. Both should be aware enough to recognize that villains turn bet was an over bet and that Hero's shove was a raise meaning action isn't complete.