I Lost my Poker Virginity

*flop 2d4h7d

The flat then 3bet backraise feels a lot like 77/44 ... maybe 6d5d/5d3d/Ad5d/Ad3d/8d6d/8d5d/4dXd does it too, but I think it's a lot more likely at least some of those raise the first time around.

The main thing to think about isn't so much that it's 110bb but that it was a limped pot, so you started flop with 22x SPR ... and at that kind of depth I would think we aren't in great shape against ranges that want to stack off. I understand why you wanted to raise the first time (wet board, wide ranges) but we can (and robots do) call more often with bottom set.

Even if we assume he has all suited two pairs preflop and goes nuts with all of them that's still only:

74s = 2 combos.
42s = 0 combos.
72s = 1 combo.
77 = 3 combos.
44 = 3 combos.

You are in a terrible spot and I'm not sure I could find a fold (or even if it's good), but I would for sure not 4bet unless I think he has enough complete spazz hands (like all 65o combos or random overpair, or some weird "I'm not folding pair+FD and the pot is getting big so why not stick $1k in").

going by description he might have overpairs cuz ppl like him do weird things

I’m allin at what is just a 110bb depth w/straddle

A set is a pretty good hand on this board.

Heads-up I think a call is probably best (to keep in MP’s bluffs), but that can’t be the right play with BB still hanging in there on what’s almost certainly a draw, and then just guessing when any cars below a ten completes a straight (plus the obvious diamonds).

So IMO we have to raise to $450 to get him out of there. If MP shoves I think it’s such a close spot (between calling and folding) that I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I generally side towards “never make hero folds” so would just call it off, but if ever there was a spot that’s SCREAMING I’ve been overset, it would be here, with a call/back-raise line in a limped pot on 742 lol.

But yeah, I 4-bet call and shrug if I lost. I don’t think it’s profitable to spend time thinking about scenarios where you should fold sets.

Feels like 74s and a draw. I'm all in.

Your first time playing poker was a 2/5/10 game? Is that what the topic means?

1. When analyzing hands and trying to decide what our action should be, we probably shouldn't be referencing hands that happened later in the session, like his 74 hand, because we didn't have that info when ee were making our decision.

2. How much time do we have with this V? Do we know if he limps with middling pairs, like 77 or 44? Why do we think he wouldn't blast off with the NFD? What about 1P + NFD (A4dd) or combo draws, like 65dd or 53dd?

3. Back raises are usually a super strong hand that was trapping. If we think he's got 2P in his range, then he also has sets in his range. 44 especially is a hand many players will limp in with from MP.

We should probably expect V to bomb the turn if we call. If we're up against a better set, we're dead to 1 out. Even if V only has a combo draw, he's got tons of equity, and we'll hate any diamond, ace, 3, or 6 on the turn.

I can't see folding a set to such a small raise size. I also can't see 4B'ing to any size that isn't a jam, if we're planning to then fold to a jam, unless we just click it back to $285, which sounds crazy and pointless, but might be a good play, if it folds out any hands with tons of equity, and keeps him from jamming turn. It's a disaster if he rips it in over top with 53dd, 65dd, or A4dd.

So, unless we want to click it back and fold to a jam, I think we can just call, and see what he does on the turn. If he checks to us on a brick, we probably have to bomb it. If he bombs it, we might have to fold.

Weird spot.
Personally, I'd iso preflop, but there seems to be a consensus on overlimping with small pp, so whatever.

On the flop, if we were HU, this would be a call IP, but I don't really like calling with the BB still to act.
Folding isn't an option either, so we are left with raising.
Given the stacks, I don't think we can 4bet/fold, so I'd just shove; not too happy to go broke in a limped pot on this flop, but that's life ...

Limping is bad. Not being able to get it in with a set with no flush or straight on board makes limping here look even worse, what, were you looking to flop quads?

Raise to $50, iso the limper. As played, ship it.

Nah, first time wrong end of SvSet

The action points to at least two people having a "pretty good hand", so maybe think about it a bit with the worst "pretty good hand".

I don't mind hero calling and going broke on blank runouts, that's poker, but 4bet flop is bad IMNSHO. If for no other reason than if MP has some weird KK play, calling mostly guarantees they continue and go broke on brick runouts ... raising much more likely makes them fold.

Ps. Fair warning: I'm pretty sure I'm going to post this hand in the future as MP with Ad4d or 6d5d and see how many of you think a backraise is a great idea.

If there was ever a time to fold a set this is it. Not sure what we think MP could have here. I guess we beat 74 and 42 but that seems quite optimistic.

I just don’t see why MP would make a small raise with a combo draw possibly forcing himself to call a big raise or fold to a jam.

I think we’re up against a set here most of the time. We don’t have to tell anyone what we folded. If they ask I just say I was bluffing, which is true if they have us beat 😃

ISO raising 22 over an MP limper is fine, but there are some MP limpers who are going for a limp reraise with premiums.

It's not a horrible play to overlimp 22 over an MP open limper. Occasionally, you will dodge a limp reraise from a premium holding.

There are several wrong statements here. It is so hard to unpack every one.

I'll leave at this. I would rather call down with bottom set than top 2 pair. RaiseAnnounced is getting this backwards.

BTW, very small pocket pairs have very good implied odds. I would never call them RIO hands. I have seen bottom set win so much money against worse hands in limped pots because...LOL LIVE POKER.

This is not a time to fold bottom set.

If you are scared of the back raise, call the back raise and then play poker on the turn. We can use our superior position on the turn and base our turn decision off the turn action.

I'd say back raising those hands is a bad idea. But live low stakes players make bad decisions like that sometimes.

I'm with you, though. My first thought here was that we're up against a bigger set. But good decision making requires considering other possibilities, like a weird slow play with AA/KK, or an over-play with A4dd, 53dd, etc. It's a disaster if we only give our opponents nutted hands and we end up folding.

It's a gross spot with bottom set, especially if V is capable of taking this line without a bigger set. It's even more gross if we flat call and the BB back-jams.

I think a min-click 4B-fold is okay. So is flatting and seeing what happens on the turn. I'd expect V to bomb it on a brick with his bigger sets. But I also wonder, if this is some bizarre line with some other hand, does V continue on the same way? Like, to your point, if this is KK, does he keep playing it like 77?

I'm pretty sure they don't think of it as playing like 77. But a hand history from this weekend:

1-2 max buyin $300
V has sat down within a round or two, but has been limping well over 50% within that time, calling raises. $180-$200

H covers

OTTH:

Folds to V
V limps HJ
CO folds
H on BTN with 55; makes it $12
Blinds fold

Flop: Q75 (probably two tone); V checks; H bets $15; V snap makes it $45; H thinks for a bit and calls

Turn: Q75 9 (no flush); V shoves ~$135; H considers that 86 got there but shrugs and calls; V shows KK.

Does he assume I have AQ and call any flop 3bet? Maybe.

Only to clarify what I was saying - if V has KK here (in OP's hand), he may not think of it as he's playing his hand as if he had 77, but we could look at it that way, since we've got bottom set, we're losing to top or middle set, and V's line suggests top set. His line is repping a bigger set, even if he's just got an over-pair.

Your hand is a bit different - it wasn't a limped pot, it's a Q-high flop, and there's no back-raise from V. I don't know if V in OP's hand is taking his line with AA/KK, on that 7-high board, but it seems less likely than your V sand-bagging with a big PP pre, and then over-playing it on this flop texture.

By which I mean - we've seen V's sand-bag big PP's pre, then blast off with a check-raise on a "safe" flop. We don't often see V's taking this absurdly odd limp-check-flat-back-raise line with slow-played over-pairs. The former is a garden-variety slow-play turned over-play. The latter is anything but usual for most low-stakes games.

Either way - I wouldn't try to get inside either V's head, if we're trying to understand why either V would think a big over-pair was the nuts, when hero can have all the sets.

Your V sounds terrible. I gather from our OP in this thread that his V actually did have a bigger set, which I think goes to your point (and mine), that if V did have AA/KK, he's certainly playing it like he's got a bigger set. If he took that line with a big over-pair, I'd say he's beyond terrible. If he's just doing it with top set, it's not terrible.

wish I had a picture of Villian, think that would’ve made things very straightforward in hindsight. yes, he did have 77.

In my very limited SSNL experience IÂ’ve played with a few guys of this exact description and they always have the overset thereÂ…as has everyone else.

And guys like that are going to put you on AK and call preflop shoves with middle pairs. They didnÂ’t drive 2+ hours across the desert to fold.

Funny story. 1-3, have I have 22 in BB, 2-3 limpers and SB call. Flop Q72 two clubs, checked around. Turn Qc, I bet 20, MP firmly says 70, I call. River blank, I check, he goes AI for 150 and says “Save your money”! 😂 He showed 77.

Other time I flopped a set of deuces I (correctly) folded on the turn.