LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Show me where the triangle won without MJ or Kobe

Everyone else cringed and outright rejected the crazy offense

Without MJ, the triangle would be the same unknown offense that it was for 50 years before MJ turned it into a winner.. MJ is the goat candidate, not the offense, and MJ is the only guy where an offense or a coach is considered part of the "cast" and used to tear him down.. That's how weak his cast was that people cite things aside from actual players as part of his cast like the coach or the non-descript offense that he turned into a winner.

MJ is supposed to be better than Duncan and Curry, yet he couldn't win without the triangle - that makes no sense.. He obviously made the offense just like he made Pippen, not the other way around.. This is obvious to anyone with a brain.. You had to average 30 without dominating the ball - what perimeter player can do that - only MJ and Kobe.

Phil was actually quite clueless and told MJ that he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore under the triangle

Why would I change my mind when everything that I said has happened, such as another organic ball movement team destroying a ball-dominant team and player...

again, since the 3-point line was instituted in 1980, anyone with 4+ Finals appearances has winning record in the Finals except Lebron-ball and his teammates.. Bron-ball is literally the only losing brand in the Finals over a meaningful sample size...

Again, the only reason a losing brand made that many Finals is due to the manufactured path (the "decision").. It all makes sense - it all adds up

Had a guy at my poker table today claim Jordan would *easily* average 40 in today's NBA and that 50 wasn't out of the question (bear in mind I live in Chicago).

Kid at my table scoffed and said "defense is so much better now he would have to entirely relearn the game first" which I enjoyed.

I know when I'm watching Steph play, I think "Man I wish he shot less 3s and more mid-range."

Excellent jump shooter Tatum 6-22, 3 turnovers. Through 2 games, 12/38 shooting, 9 TOs, team pretty easily up 2-0.

How is the team winning without getting tons of points on midrange shots from their “superstar”? Could it be perhaps the team is not ordinary, or that Jayson Tatum is both not an excellent jump shooter or anywhere near a top 5 player?

GOAT Sidekick, healthy = instant Finals, carried Lebron, probably going to win finals MVP Kyrie: 14 PPG on 35% FG, 0 made threes, 8 assists and 5 turnovers through 2 games.

How can we twist this narrative hmmmm…Will it be, Tatum isn’t trying because it’s garbage time and Kyrie can’t shoot because “Luka-ball” doesn’t work?

There are 15-20 guys in the league now as good as MJ. League is much much better than it was. MJ could hardly play with his left hand. He'd just be James Harden now. But not that good.

the insane thing is that you guys really think this crap

so understand this - you guys literally should stop watching basketball - I'm serious - because you cannot appreciate it and don't know what you're watching - you're literally like a dog watching TV..

If you cannot appreciate Michael Jordan and think that Harden or any of today's bums compare, then you cannot appreciate basketball and cannot discern an orange from a tangerine, from a basketball standpoint...

Why would you guys try to be fruit experts when you can't tell the difference between and orange and a tangerine?.. That's what you're doing with hoops - you're that clueless and have no clue what you're watching..

the real issue is that Adam Silver has this level of hoops knowledge as well, which is why he created this beginner format that yields **** players and weak skillsets that get destroyed in international play.. It's really all Silver's fault but he's a microcosm or a representation of the vast ignorance of today's fan about the game.. I recommend that you guys stop wasting your life trying to be cool and understand basketball - you drastically failed - you don't understand basketball and obviously could never play

Here's the bottom line

Luka, Lebron and any high-scoring ball-dominator cannot develop a juggernaut like what the Celtics have because it requires great chemistry to continually add players and have them actually work...

Porzingas fits great because the Celtics already had great chemistry and a great system - Tatum's off-ball skiillset allows this type of ball movement and chemistry development... Otoh, Luka and Lebron's "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so cannot have great chemistry to fit with Brunson or Porzingas..

Due to this weak chemistry and ball-domination, it's nearly impossible to build a winner around them through normal means - collusion is required to get enough help to offset their bad chemistry... And their weak brand STILL mostly loses even after you get the best cast possible for them.. Lebron had amazing spacing and phenomenal help but is still only 20-21 in the Finals from 2011-2017 and 2020 - so he mostly loses regardless of cast.

Lebron averaged 30 ppg in 2010, so how many would he average today??.. 35 ppg seems completely reasonable since teams are scoring 14 more ppg and 8 more points per 100 possessions.. Most of these points go to the star players.. The rules were also changed in 2017 to ban "impeding" perimeter players (banning defense), while the spacing night-and-day better than 2010.

If peak Lebron would average 35 today, than peak Jordan would get at least 40... Lebron and JJ Redick bragged about Lebron averaging 38 ppg with "no spacing" in the 2009 ECF, but the no-spacing format was the standard in the 80's and 90's when MJ averaged 30-37 ppg.

A cursory glance at footage from previous eras shows a night-and-day difference in spacing, physicality and packed paints - Jordan's game would explode if he had teammates to shoot 35 threes per game to space the floor, while the rules don't allow defenders to touch him.. This benefits quick players, and MJ was the quickest player ever pound-for-pound.. Of course, despite no practice, MJ shot 36-39% on threes when he had today's volume (3+ attempts), so he would shoot over 40% with practice in today's game.

Tatum was drafted to a 1 seed conference finals team that added Kyrie Irving with an extremely well regarded coach and FO.

Despite this, by fraudguy’s horrid logic, he’s lost his entire career - even if he wins this year, he’ll still have “mostly lost” for his overall career, and he hasn’t even been a top 3 player on his own team in the Finals so far.

Why would Jayson Tatum get credit for how good his teammates are? Pretty much all of his teammates were either developed by the organization (Jaylen Brown, Pritchard) or vets who were elite players prior to joining (Horford, Jrue, KP). The one exception would be Derrick White but I don’t see strong evidence Tatum is responsible for this.

Common sense would actually dictate the opposite of what Fraudguy suggests. While Tatum is solid to very good at most things (good/smart defender, good rebounder, okay passer, decent shooter) he’s not particularly elite at anything and is actually seems quite bad at isolation scoring, particularly against good defenses. Anyone who has watched the first couple games knows he’s actually embarrassed himself trying to score by himself, frequently unable to even get a shot off (blocked, turnover) and just throwing up constant bricks on the supposed tough contested shots he’s allegedly good at. He fits on any team but he would almost certainly be lower regarded as a player on almost any other team.

Tatum has never had a regular season BPM higher than 5.5 and never had a playoff BPM higher than 6.3. Luka’s regular season BPM for his entire career is 7.8 and if you exclude his rookie year it is 8.5. His playoff career BPM is 9. Tatum is not remotely near Luka in terms of player caliber. If you swapped them, the Celtics cakewalk to a title and the Mavs don’t even make the conference Finals.

There’s no logic other than he wanted to be right no matter what happened so he said if Celtics win it’s because of expert shooter Tatum (who has sucked balls) and Mavs win it’s because Kyrie (who has sucked balls) is the secret sauce to fox ball domination.

An excellent p0int. Dribbling the basketball with the left hand is indeed an invention of the m0dern NBA. Some say bouncing the baLl properly with the left hand did not become standard pract1ce until 2023 or maybe 2024:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rsIO0lj5Kh...

Because Jordan stan needs Luka Doncic to lose, because Jordan was never a playmaker. So he wants playmakers so fail, and iso scorers to succeed.

He knows Jordan was not an elite playmaker, and LeBron was superior to Jordan at playmaking by a wide margin.

Luka Doncic is also vastly superior to Jordan at playmaking.

Nature is healing. When a bunch of nostalgic olds die off in the next 20 years, Bron will go from 30-40% GOAT to about 60-70% GOAT.

your post is a nice narrative that appeals to new fans that don't know Jordan was the best point guard in the league after 3 games at the position - he could've been the greatest point guard ever if he stayed at that position and averaged 30/10/10 for the next 5-10 years.. But the problem is that he would've lost his ass just like Lebron did playing that way, and just like Luka did playing that way, and just like Oscar did playing that way, and just like Magic did playing that way in 90' and 91' without Kareem (catastrophic upset to KJ and then blowout to MJ).

So the reason MJ is superior to all these losing ball-dominators is that his skillset didn't rely on losing ball-domination, while they all relied almost exclusively on ball-domination.. Jordan was the goat shooting guard that could've been the goat point guard if he subordinated his game to strictly ball-domination.. Fortunately, he had expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates, be an assist target and ultimately facilitate ball movement and superior strategic capacity.

See, what many people don't understand is that let's say there was a player named "Bob" for lack of a better name that was capable of averaging 50/20/20 - he would lose in a similar fashion to Luka and Lebron because the "down-hill" or ball-dominant skillset freezes out teammates... So the story would be that Bob's teammates stunk and didn't provide enough help just like with Luka and Lebron's cast always perform like crap - so even though this guy is getting 50/20/20, teammates still have to get 50-90 points to win the game, and they simply can't against the best teams with that brand of ball - this is based on the historical record.

Since ball-dominators cannot win with chemistry, they need more talent (more help) - "more help" is the only reason ever given when a ball-dominator loses - the idea of developing greater chemistry the way expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs do isn't a consideration.. It's just "get Ant more help!!"... "Get Lebron more help"!!.... Meanwhile, expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs like Tatum, MJ, Curry, Jokic or Duncan develop great chemistry over many years, so they eventually win with far less help and "normal" casts of 1 franchise player.

He gets credit for having great fits with everyone, due to his scoring diversity (off-ball and on-ball) - this allows great chemistry development as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team.

Otoh, Luka and Lebron's "down-hill" and ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it cannot develop the great chemistry needed for great-performing casts, aka great teams.... Since they can't rely on chemistry, they need more talent (more help) and all losses are blamed on "more help" needed.

So again, Tatum doesn't get much credit for young player development like say, MJ did for example, but he still gets credit for having the scoring diversity to allow great fits, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching (which led to the juggernaut we see today).

Curry, MJ, Giannis, Jokic and even 2010 Lebron developed organic juggernauts and league favorites after 6-7 years in the league, and Tatum followed this same path.

The difference is that Lebron gave up on learning the chemistry needed to win with "normal" casts of 1 franchise player and opted for talent-based winning via 3 franchise players (super-team) - the "decision" put the top 3 players in the East on 1 team, yet somehow Lebron got credit and props for winning the conference after that.. Fans and media proved quite gullible in this moment.

No one is saying that Tatum is as good as MJ, Kobe, or Curry... But Tatum's development of outstanding chemistry and effective basketball over many years is because he has great scoring diversity with off-ball and on-ball play, which is similar to MJ or Curry.

Tatum's scoring diversity enabled great ball movement and chemistry development, and this chemistry allows the team to seamlessly add players like Porzingas and develop the juggernaut we see today.. Meanwhile, Luka's ball-dominance and weaker chemistry needs more talent such as MULTIPLE franchise player teammates just like Lebron-ball did, and he'll still mostly lose on the championship level..

This forecast for Luka is based on solid empirical evidence of the last 21 years against the exact same opponents Luka currently faces, so it's a pretty damn good comp.. Of course Luka and Lebron have similar time of possession, assisted rates and even crappy efficiency on jumpers overall, so their styles are eerily similar.

Hersey Hawkins was a superior player than Jason Terry:

Regular Season

Hersey Hawkins........... 14.7.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.7... 0.3... 59 TS... 16.3 PER... 2.0 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
Jason Terry.................... 13.4.... 2.3.... 3.8... 1.1... 0.2... 55 TS... 16.2 PER... 1.5 BPM... 0.116 WS.48.

Playoffs

Hersey Hawkins........... 14.1.... 3.6.... 2.9... 1.6... 0.3... 61 TS... 16.6 PER... 3.8 BPM... 0.144 WS.48
Jason Terry.................... 14.1.... 2.5.... 3.0... 0.9... 0.2... 56 TS... 14.9 PER... 1.7 BPM... 0.096 WS.48

Even without knowing the stats above, everyone knows that Hawkins was 4th option on the Sonics but easily better than Jason Terry, which confirms that the 96' Sonics were far superior to the 11' Mavs.

However, you wouldn't know the 96' Sonics destroy the 11' Mavs based on an often-cited net efficiency chart from the postseason (shown above), which shows the Mavs had a 6.7 net efficiency compared to 2.7 for the Sonics.. Since the gap isn't due to the Mavs superiority, it's clearly due to the cupcakes and weaker comp they faced - postseason net efficiency reflects opponent strength on that run just as much as the team's strength.. It's probably the worst stat to compare teams, ESPECIALLY across eras - in this way, it's a fraudulent stat, likely originating from Klutch Sports.

The 1996 Sonics faced the 20th, 12th, and 3rd rated SRS teams en route to the Finals.

The 2011 Mavs faced the 12th, 3rd, and 9th en route to the Finals. The weak cupcake competition included the two time defending champion Lakers and the Thunder team that made the NBA Finals the following season.

Fraudguy - “total cupcakes!”

Lebron is excused for wetting the bed in the 07' Finals because he was 22 years old, so it's contradictory to praise 22-year old-led teams and pretend they were good comp like the 11' Thunder... The fact that the Mavs faced Westbrick and he was a baby confirms their weak comp.. Then of course the Mavs beat a team pursuing a 3-peat, and those teams are always trash and get swept like the 89' Lakers, 91' Pistons, 96' Rockets and 11' Lakers (14' Heat were beaten by record amount).

So again, the Mavs faced the weakest comp possible, hence them having nearly 3 times the net efficiency as the Sonics in the playoffs, despite the Sonics having a 4th option that destroys the Mavs' hero on both sides of the ball.. The Sonics have a clear-cut advantage in talent, yet their superior comp of long-standing organic juggernauts (Rockets, Jazz, Bulls) destroys the Mavs' comp of fossils or baby Westbricks.

People forget that Magic's 63-win Lakers were upset by the loaded Suns in 1990, who were then destroyed by the loaded Blazers, who were then destroyed by the loaded Pistons.. Then the 93' Sonics destroyed the favored Hakeem before a historic 7-game series against Barkley.. The point is that the 90's West had goat parity, so long-standing organic juggernauts took turns making the Finals - the team that represented the West went through a blood bath and was having their banner year with everything going for them.. So MJ faced freight trains in the Finals and organic juggernauts that Lebron typically loses to, aka Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Mavs, Magic.

The reason that MJ could go 6-0 against battle-tested, long-standing, organic juggernauts is because he had an organic juggernaut himself, aka fight fire with fire... This wasn't random - Jordan's expert jumpshooting and off-ball skillset allowed great fits, ball movement and chemistry, which allowed the development of a great-performing cast, aka great team... But if he was a spot-up-role-imposing ball-dominator that couldn't develop chemistry and therefore needed more talent (more help), he would get destroyed in the Finals just like Luka and Lebron.

Fallguy spittin’ facts.

If the NBA does not, in fact, improve exp0nentially over short time scales (if it does, that immediately implies Nikola Jokic is the greatest basketball player ever), then it seems like fallguy is providing iron clad arguments that Jordan is indeed the GOAT.

How could we have been so blind to facts and logic. All this time, and LeBron was never even in contention. How could anyone have guessed, after he won 2 whole titles with his Miami superteam? Ah well, perhaps we can all learn from this in some way.

Congrats fallguy and thanks for teaching us all. Thread MVP.

fallguy, how many championships did MJ or Kobe win without Phil?

Just answer the question.

MJ fans are unironically blind to facts and logic.

Fraudguy: “96 Sonics had much stronger playoff competition than 11 Mavs”

Reality: 11 Mavs faced much stronger competition per SRS. Note that Fraudguy has often used SRS to measure LeBron’s competition.

Fraudguy: “well actually, the 9th rated Thunder were far worse than their SRS, because they were young and LeBron lost in the 07 Finals at 22”

Factually incorrect statement and when countered with those facts, overrule them for a totally unrelated reason. What does 07 Lebron have to do with Mavs and Sonics playoff competition?

Another one:

Fraudguy: “Jayson Tatum is an excellent jump shooter and has a high diversity of scoring. He’s excellent in catch and shoot”

Reality: Years of shot data shows Tatum is a mediocre jump shooter at best, and bad in the playoffs. He is shooting 35% in his Finals career, worst ever for someone who shoots as much as he does. And most of his points come from the restricted area/3.

Fraudguy: “Tatum missing every jump shot allows for great fits and organic team chemistry”

Incredible fact and logic based argument. MJ fans live in fantasy land.

This is probably true. After all, the league and its talent evolves exp0nentially, and the NBA is in its most ev0lved state on June 12th, 2024.

Als0, the statistics on Jayson Tatum’s sho0ting is just variance. It is unfortunate that only true Jayson Tathim fans understand the concept of var1ance. Since we kn0w for a fact the measured results of Jayson TatHim are actually worse than they should be due to variants. We can conclude conclusively due to exponential evolution of basketball that Jayson Tathum is the GOAT.