LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

It is not a coincidence the only season that he didn't atleast make the conference finals since 2020 was when he had long covid.

Unfortunately for the Mavs that is a thing of the past and all they have to look forward to is him hitting LONG THREE BOMBS.

I too am fearful for the Dallas Mavericks, and the rest of the league in fact, for this dominance of Jayson Tatum. He will likely win at least 7 titles total. And if he does not, we will know (factually) that it is simply due to the variance. In much the same way LeBron doesn’t have 7 titles due to the variance.

In general, players born before 2010 were bad, and cannot dribble with their left hand as that is a modern invention. For the most part, you have to be a pre-teen or younger to be in GOAT consideration due to the extreme advancement in 3 point chucking and flop analytics. Old head basketball players like Wemby just can’t keep up. Jerry West even more so because I don’t think basketball was even invented yet back then.

I always make sure to use SRS in a way that accounts for the variance of the stat - for example, I say that in 21 seasons, Lebron never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick - he never carried weak help over top teams in 2 decades.. This accounts for the variance via sample size of 21 years - Lebron clearly isn't capable of having carry-jobs vs top teams..

When we examine why, we see that he's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams (insufficient brand at carry-job volume), so he can't win as a -700 favorite with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams and needs all-time scoring help instead.. Lebron's inability to carry the scoring burden is the biggest difference between him and MJ and it manifests itself is 2 very tangible ways: 1) the aforementioned inability to carry weak help over top teams over a 21-year sample, and 2) inability to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)..

Since he can't carry weak help over top teams or carry the scoring load on the championship level, he needs great scoring help/star help.. Otoh, Mj's goat ability to carry the scoring load allowed him to win a lot with the least star help/scoring help, such as having the only dynasty that wasn't an all-star team.... Ultimately, "passers" like Lebron, Magic and Luka have always needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kyrie, Wade, AD plus perennial all-star forwards at 3rd option like Worthy, Bosh or Love.

In contrast to my effective use of SRS shown above, your use of SRS in a single season allows variance factors to come into play such as the baby age of the Thunder and a historically-tough fit like Westbrook.. Now if we had a long sample size of the Thunder being a Finals team then we would have something but we saw that KD needed to team up with Curry and Westbrick missed the play-in with Lebron - that's the caliber that Dirk's 10-year organic juggernaut of battle-worn veterans defeated., and they beat the baby version of these guys.. This doesn't compare to the 96' Sonics beating Hakeem and facing the goat team (96' bulls)...

Furthermore, we know that the Sonics' 4th option (Hawkins) was better than the Mavs' hero Jason Terry, which further confirms that the gap in net efficiency is due to the gap in comp.

Tatum isn't on the Curry or MJ level of jumpshooting, but the point is that Tatum employs a similar jumpshooting style that yields the great chemistry and teams that we saw from Curry and MJ - aka you don't have to be their caliber to develop a juggernaut.

So again, the point is that Tatum is infact a jumpshooter, so he plays off-ball a lot and the majority of his shots are jumpers, while the majority of Luka/Lebron's shots are at the rim and dominating the ball - this cannot develop the great chemistry required for a great-performing cast, aka great team/dynasty.. Since they can't win via chemistry, they need more talent (more help).

^^^ I never consider or cite 2-pointer basketball when I make claims about the game - all my claims are about 3-pointer basketball only (since 1980, aka modern era).

For example, I say that in the history of 3-pointer basketball, Jordan has twice as many rings as the best player as anyone else (it can easily be argued the Duncan and Lebron were only the best player for 3 of their rings).

Otoh, 2-pointer basketball was almost a different sport altogether - jumpshooting had less value and provided less spacing than later decades where the paint, rules and other factors caused the game to be played increasingly away from the rim..

Accordingly, all my claims about jumpshooting apply to the modern era.. My latest note of the historical record is that Lebron or his teammates are the only guys with losing Finals records over meaningful sample sizes (4+ Finals), aka Lebron-ball is the only losing brand in the Finals over a meaningful sample in 3-pointer history.

How many titles for the triangle without MJ or Kobe?

Just answer the question

If the GOAT couldn't win without the triangle, than he's isn't the GOAT or anywhere near.. Stop putting Jordan in your top 20 all-time if you think he needed Phil or the triangle to win titles.. The next time someone asks you about your top 20 - Jordan shouldn't be in there because you think he couldn't win without Phil or the triangle.. The only kind of players the "need" an offense to win are role players and bums.

Jordan almost won in 1989 before Phil got there - the Bulls lost to the Pistons in 6 games, but Pippen missed game 6 and the Bulls were the only team to win any games off the Pistons in those playoffs - so Phil basically inherited a title team or a near title-team with the steepest upward trajectory in the league.. Anyone could've won with a prime-Jordan squad that had a few years to develop.. The triangle was a losing and rejected offense except when MJ or Kobe won with it.

It's bball101 that offenses need great players, not the other way around - this is assumed for virtually everyone else, but for some reason it's backwards for MJ and Kobe where people say they needed the offense.. Everyone else hated the triangle.. It required the perimeter star to average 30 without dribbling - who would like that and who could DO that?.. only mj and kobe

I don't think the triangle has won any titles without MJ or Kobe. Why is it imperative that the GOAT wins championships by themselves, though? This clearly hasn't been the case since the merger. If you wanna go through the list, go ahead. You can bring up an individual and I'll show you their team. I don't think the triangle is a magic offense, I'm turning your point toward demoting LeBron out of the top-10 back at you where it can be applied.

LeBron never won without Wade, Kyrie, or AD. Fine.
MJ and Kobe had plenty of years without Phil to chip and never did.

You can bring up how close they were, but the fact remains that LeBron got closer to winning with no help at 22 or something like that than MJ or Kobe ever did without Phil.

I'm not saying this makes LeBron the GOAT. I'm saying it throws a curveball into your way of approaching this.

its TatHIM

Jordan set the GOAT standard, that's why.

He set the GOAT standard by being the first player to win titles by carrying the most important stat category (scoring), which allowed him to win with less help than his predecessors like Russell, Magic, or Bird, and also successors like Duncan, Curry, or Lebron..

Furthermore, we saw Lebron be all-defense and MVP for a short window of 5 years (09'14'), while MJ won MVP's, all-defense, and scoring champ throughout a 10-year period (88-98').. So MJ the only player that played all-time offense, all-time defense, and MVP-caliber for his entire prime and a 10-year period (88-98'), while Lebron was only all-defense and MVP for the aforementioned 5 year window (09-14')..

Ultimately, no one peaked at MVP/DPOY/scoring champ and maintained this caliber for 10-years..

(MJ was top 7 for DPOY from 88-98', and he was mostly top 4 except a couple years.. Meanwhile, Lebron was outside the top 8 in 08', 11', 15', 16', 18', and 19'.. He was outside the top 15 (no votes) in 08', 15', 16', and 19'.).

Lebron is outside my top 10 because his skillset needs the most help to win out of the 3 major skillsets... Based on the skillset that needs the least help to win, the best expert jumpshooters are at the top of my list (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), followed by the best centers (Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Shaq), followed by the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar)... As you can see, this puts Lebron outside the top 10

But this is a skillset-based decision - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) yields a reliance on ball-dominance that prevents offenses like the triangle or the warrior's or spur's system, so he can't produce the chemistry or teams like MJ, Curry or Duncan did - history shows this clearly - Lebron could never generate teams that matched any of these guys.. So Lebron fell short of MANY guys - not just MJ - he couldn't match Kobe, Curry or Duncan's teams either, so that's a big enough sample to know that lebron-ball simply doesn't produce great teams.. Luka will follow this

Phil is a coach... Can your Klutch Sports-hypnotized brain understand that you just compared a bunch of top 30 all-time players to a damn COACH?

And that's how weak Jordan's cast was - he's the only guy that gets a coach included as part of his cast - fans cannot cite impressive cast members that often "take over", so they cite the coach.

But here are the 2 issues with your position.. It's coincidence that Phil missed the early years or very late years that most players lose and only arrived at the beginning of MJ's prime when all great players start to win.

Furthermore, unlike Lebron, Jordan didn't have any all-star teammates UNTIL he got Phil, at which point he was unbeatable and didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 years (90-98') - Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got an all-star teammate, while Lebron and everyone else in history was extremely beatable with many all-star teammates... Essentially, MJ is punished for being unbeatable with the first all-star he received and never needing another one, while everyone else needed many all-stars and won much less.. Btw, MJ not getting all-star teammates until he got Phil is a pretty salient fact for you to overlook in coming up with your point.

(Btw, we all know that the all-star MJ got wasn't a go-to player - he was just a dunker and historic bricklayer/lane-clogger with the lowest peak capability of any 90's sidekick - not on scouting report according to Shaq - and a career-exposing, catastrophic drop-off outside the system in 1999 and thereafter - if anyone was nothing without Phil - it was Pippen).

Lebron never had "nothing" in the playoffs because he always had high seeds and his first playoff team had an all-star center, HOF coach and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.... No All-D

^^^ MJ would obviously 3-peat with all that, but Lebron was swept by the Spurs because he wet the bed with 22 on 35%.

So you can't compare the winning of a 4th year team (22-year Lebron) with the winning of a 1st year team (22-year Jordan) - Lebron had 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while 22-year MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no time to develop his team.

Lebron's 2009 cast was superior to the 1990 Bulls on both sides of the ball:

09' Mo Williams........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...... #3 team defense
90' Pippen................. 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.... #19 team defense

^^^ So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet MJ still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for 2 more years in 10' and 11' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team.. Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07 Playoffs, so the 2010 Cavs had a better scorer than Pippen as their 3rd option and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls since 2007 (before Lebron was an all-defensive player).

People forget that Lebron had a Year 6 team in 2009 - any top 10 candidate should have an organic juggernaut by Year 6 and 7, which is similar to Jokic, Giannis Curry or MJ for example.. The only difference is that Lebron gave up on learning the chemistry to win with a "normal" organic roster of 1 franchise player and opted for talent-based winning of 3 franchise players (super-team) via "the decision".. So he never really learned how to win (chemistry, organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

it's unfortunate because lebron gave up on his organic roster despite a 1-star organic chip being on the table in 2011 that Dirk grabbed.. Lebron's Cavs certainly would've had the organic chemistry and reputed team defense needed to beat those Mavs, which is what the Heat lacked.

Lebron was swept by the Spurs, while MJ almost beat the 89' Pistons, so no

And Lebron wet the bed versus championship comp in 07', 08' and 11', while 23-year Jordan set the record against the 86' Celtics', or 22-year Amare averaged 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, or 20-year Magic was FMVP...

So tons of guys were better than Lebron at 22 - Lebron was simply in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (iverson, Dwight, Kidd), while also getting 3 years to develop a high seed before his 1st playoffs - these things inflated Lebron's "carrying" ability compared to guys like MJ that were thrown into the playoffs right away with no cast and faced great teams in their own conference.

There are so many objective ways at this point to show that Lebron isn't goat or anywhere near - here's just a couple:

1) For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie) - this is objectively more help than MJ needed, since Pippen never made the Finals without MJ.

2) 21 seasons and every type of star teammate (PG, SG, PF, C) confirms that Lebron isn't capable of a 3-peat, dynasty or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ.
.

This dude's retort is Larry Hughes and Mo WIlliams...

Look, man, I'm not gonna argue MJ isn't the GOAT, but LeBron over Kobe with Kobe as a one-man show is still a ridiculous argument.

Seeing as you love PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48:

Kobe
22.9 PER
4.6 BPM
80.1 VORP
.170 WS/48

LeBron
27.1 PER
8.7 BPM
151.9 VORP
.224 WS/48

2007 1st Round

Jamison....... 32/10 on 55%
Lebron......... 28/10 on 48%

Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option, while also having better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - this confirms that the 2010 Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. They were a Year 7 organic juggernaut just like Curry, Giannis, Jokic and MJ had after 7 years.

And these organic juggernauts rely on chemistry, so they're league favorites without having great sidekicks such as Middleton, Klay, Pippen or Murray, so some of these guys compare to multiple time all-stars like Jamison, Zydrunas, or Mo.. Murray was never an all-star, while Middleton was a fluke 1-timer.. None of these guys were elite producers and they were all infact relatively low producers among notable sidekicks.

So again, the 2010 Cavs had more help than the 1st three-peat Bulls on both sides of the ball, while the 06' and 07' Cavs had an all-star center, HOF coach and acquired a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - that's more help than the 1st three-peat Bulls too - MJ obviously 3-peats with all that.

In the Lebron vs Kobe debate, Lebron has the production rate and stats on his side across the board.

Fortunately, production rate stats aren't the entire story for 1st options because 1st options dictate brand of ball, playing style, chemistry, strategic capacity/coaching, and teammate development, which ultimately determines a team's ceiling/Finals record.

Obviously, Kobe's goat scoring diversity fit with any teammate or system, while also getting 40 while the ball moves, so he could develop the great chemistry over time to develop a great-performing cast - Kobe had goat chemistry/fits with teammates due to his goat scoring diversity, and this great chemistry produced great teams with less help...

Of course, Kobe had already 3-peated and knew the blueprint in 2008, so it was instant when Pau joined - this is similar to Jordan having the blueprint already and therefore quickly lifting a borderline .500 team in 95' to a 3-peat the next year..

It took Kobe and MJ numerous years to figure out goat basketball the first time around, but then they quickly duplicated their success with new casts the 2nd time around - this confirms that they learned championship chemistry, and this was transferrable to any cast or team.. Kawhi also showed this in 2019 after learning the best brand of ball and great chemistry in San Antonio.

In contrast to 1st options (who dictate brand of ball), sidekicks are more pure stat producers, so their production rates (PER, etc) can be directly compared - when we do this, we see that Pippen ranks outside the top 100 in PER and WS/48, while ranking below Kyrie, AD, and Wade in BPM.. VORP is an accumulation stat based on minutes played, but Pippen's peak VORP for a season is also outside the top 100.

This isn't true, though. Kobe won zero championships from 2004-08. Wasn't even close between Shaq-Phil and Pau-Phil.

I'm not holding it against Kobe that he didn't compete for championships every year, but by your method, the Lakers should've been contenders because of Kobe's GOATness without Shaq, Phil, or Pau.

Why are Kobe's teams allowed to be crap without help, but LeBron competing when his teams were crap get disregarded?

Also, Kobe wasn't as diverse a scorer as you make him out to be. His 3P shooting had its moments, but was never consistent and averaged out to under 33%. Considering that his 2P% was under 48%, this isn't as strong as LeBron's .348 and .555. Cure, LeBron's numbers were worse before Miami, but he was still more efficient that Kobe with a similar USG% (just under 32%).

in some alternate universe labron has won 10 of 21 championships all with cleveland and fraudguy is on here spouting "mostly losing" nonsense about him.

Kobe had a couple down years but so did Lebron in 04', 05', 08', 10', 11', 19', 21', 22' and 24'... Lebron had a crappy 45-win team in Year 5 (08') until he received the all-star spacing in 2009 that his stiff arm needs to have a real contender and be MVP.

And again, you're forgetting that Phil got there at the same time that MJ got his first all-star teammate in 1990 - this is why MJ started winning, not Phil.. MJ nearly beat the champs without Phil in 89' but he also didn't have an all-star teammate that year - the instant a teammate became all-star caliber, MJ was unbeatable by winning 6 titles and not losing 3 straight games for 9 years (90-98')..

Again, MJ is the only player where a coach is used against him and considered part of his cast - no other player gets this treatment - it's a fake narrative because no real ones can be drawn from a perfect career.. A "perfect" career means never losing when expected to win, a perfect record on the championship level, and also goat offense, goat defense and MVP's throughout a 10-year period (scoring champ/1st-team defense/MVP throughout the 88-98' period).

Kobe would shoot better from 3 in today's high-screen-roll, drive-and-kick format - this yields open kickouts that Kobe didn't get because he was in a 2-pointer offense (triangle)... Due to today's drive-and-kick format and spacing strategy, today's player enjoys over 80% of their threes as "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet from closest defender) - this is according to nba.com.. Defenders simply cannot cover the ground in today's spacing era.

Furthermore, when i say scoring diversity, I'm not talking about the "3 levels" crap you hear on TV and popular podcasts - this method only considers the distance that the player scored from and not how the player got to that distance/spot - if the player relies on ball-dominance, aka high-scoring ball-dominator, then we know this style impose spot-up roles and has bad fits/teams..

Otoh, a more diverse scoring skillset can dominate via ball-domination but also dominate off-screens and playing off teammates as an assist target - this facilitates better ball movement, fits/chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching - these things yield better teams with less help.. "Less help" would be 1 all-star teammate that averages less than 20 ppg and was a 1x all-star after 7 seasons prior to joining Kobe and becoming perennial all-nba.

10/21 = 48% win frequency

so no, I wouldn't knock Lebron for losing less frequently than Jordan, who had a 40% win frequency (6/15)...

But unfortunately, 10/21 is more fantasy land by Lebron fans because Lebron won a ghastly 4 of 21 years, which is the worst frequency of any top 10 candidate aside from maybe Wilt.

Otoh, Jordan won the most frequently of anyone in the modern era, aka 6 chips in 15 years, or 40%... that's the goat winning frequency in 3-pointer history.

But the original point was that guys like Curry won 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, or MJ won 6 in 7, so they proved that they can have a stretch where they mostly won with a team - they can be "unbeatable" or at least mostly win, while Lebron never had a stretch of mostly winning with any cast and mostly lost with every cast that he ever had - he mostly loses, regardless of cast and therefore is a few levels below guys that showed they can mostly win (MJ, Duncan, Curry, Kobe, and more)..

Ultimately, Lebron is the biggest loser of all-time by virtue of the aforementioned woat winning frequency (4/21) among top 10 candidates and also mostly losing regardless of cast, while also having the worst championship record in modern history (22-33) and a bevy of upset losses (09-11'), sweeps or record losses (07', 14', 17', 18', 23'), losses with 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17'), and lottery seasons in prime or with HOF teammates (19', 22')..

I think you're underrating what Phil did for his team's defenses. His teams were very well built, but Scottie was raw, Kobe wasn't much of a defender until Phil came around, and Pau wasn't a great defender until L.A. Without Pau's defense, they probably don't win Kobe's final two titles and this conversation doesn't exist because Kobe would be a guy who couldn't win without Shaq.

There's a heavy correlation with Phil coaching top-6 or top-8 defenses and winning championships.

The 2009 Magic offense was a simple 4-out-1-in scheme where Howard dominated inside and the team shot 38% from 3. In the Finals, Howard had a .572 FG% during the season, .488 in the Finals and the Magic shot 33% from 3. Kobe was amazing and carried that offense, but the Lakers won that series with defense after it fell apart in the 2008 Finals.

The 2010 Celtics blew a 3-2 lead by scoring only 67 in Game 6 and 79 in Game 7. They only scored over 96 once in that series after averaging over 99 in the regular season. Their ORtg went from ~107 in the reg to ~102 in the Finals. The Lakers won that series with defense.

Kobe was a big part of that defense, like MJ was, but he had a lot of help.

Other than 2010-11 through 2019-20, LeBron's supporting cast has either sucked or been injured.

2007 was a great achievement by LeBron and it's weird to take that away from him.

2011 was a result of not having shooters to beat a zone defense. Not sure how this is LeBron's fault.

2014, the Spurs took Wade out of the series. Not sure how you fault LeBron with that.

2018, it's tough to fault LeBron for losing to Curry/Durant/Klay when all he really had was Kevin Love. 2017 was a disaster, I'll give you that, but it's hard to fault LeBron for the crappy team defense. Tyronn Lue is a bad coach.

In 2023, they just got owned by a better team. LeBron was 38 and maybe the 3rd best player in the series at that time, let alone not a top-8 player in the league anymore. Hrd to hold that against LeBron.

I will give this to Kobe over LeBron. Kobe seems like the more coachable player. We can't and shouldn't ignore that good coaches don't wanna be anywhere near LeBron, other than Spo.

My guess is if LeBron had that level of measurable success in this alternate universe reality (10 titles in 21 seasons), fallguy and everyone else would consider him the GOAT.

In another reality however, LeBron has superteam hopped 15 times, won zero titles, and LeBron Stans would still say he’s the GOAT and it was due to variance and bad luck.

You know how I know this? LeBron has superteam hopped, and only won 4 titles in 21 seasons (4 is less than 6 FYI), and LeBron Stans still say he’s the GOAT and would have 42 titles if not due to variance and bad luck.

Who are these LeBron stans?

I don't seem to ever encounter any. LeBron didn't get much credit until his 3rd title.

It's very clear to anyone with a brain that he's the best player of the 25 post Jordan years (this isn't even close but the Kobestans are hilarious) so far, and it's very clear that he ranks somewhere in the top few all time depending on how you want to weight things.

In other sports, players with abbreviated short careers like Jordan don't get much GOAT consideration.

In another reality, Jordan retired again after losing to the Magic in 95, but the Jordan stans still cling to him being GOAT.

Pretty much everyone accepts Jordan is 1 or 2, but the LeBron haters are something truly special as they try to justify putting him outside the top 10. It would be like Djokovic haters in tennis trying to put him at number 9 all time or something absurd and clinging to Federer as their GOAT.

You is right. LeBron Stans do not exist, and there definitely wasn’t anyone calling LeBron GOAT after only his first superteam title and they definitely aren’t in the first three posts of this very thread.

Poor Jokic. I guess the exponential evolutions of the game of basketball, no help, and bad variance arguments do not apply to him. Where are the Jokic Stans to come to his defense?

Probably because no one else with a short’ish career won 6 titles and showed unprecedented dominance in their respective league for 11 years?

Alternate realities or made up variance and luck factors should probably not be used to evaluate player ability. IMO facts and this reality are more suited to that.

That is probably a response to the LeBron slurpers that have to constantly trash Jordan (e.g omg Jordan’s dad was murdered at a rest stop, he only played 15 seasons, and had a 35 year old Dennis Rodman on his team… he can’t be that good at basketball!1!! Professional basketball players making tens of millions of dollars per year didn’t even dribble with their left hand until 2010!) because they are/were desperate to crown their king the king of Stans before he even won his first title.

But not like anyone ranks Jordan outside the top 5 or 10 in this very thread due to the cherry picking LeBron stan statistical algorithm, right? That would never happen and you definitely wouldn’t lie and say only Jordan fans do that. Plz say u wouldn’t lie about that. Plz.

I guess people who think, for example, Barry Sanders, Calvin Johnson, Gale Sayers, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Ronaldo and others are among the GOATs of their sport do not exist. This LeBron Stan alternate universe is a fascinating place where you need to play at least 20 seasons to be considered GOAT, like LeBron and John Stockton. And titles do not matter which is why Tom Brady, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan are schmucks. I too want to exist on this alternate plane of reality where my favorite player has 42 titles, but only has 4 in this plane of existence due to variance.

So now we're crediting Phil with the DEFENSES? lol.... the Bulls had better defensive ranking without Phil when MJ was DPOY in 1988 (3rd) than any of the 1st three-peat Bulls teams (7th, 4th, 7th).. Of course, the biggest factor that fueled Pippen's growth as a 2-way player was landing alongside the only DPOY/MVP/scoring champ in history.

You're forgetting that the Bulls had no rim protection in a big man league, which is why the 1st three-peat Bulls had worse-ranked defenses than any of their ECF and Finals opponents, such as the 91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, and 93' Knicks.

The 2007 Cavs also had better-ranked defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls and this was long before Lebron was an all-defensive player, so those Cavs just had a ton of defensive help - this includes an all-defensive backcourt in Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, while also having Varejao (all-defense in 2010), great rim protection (Zydrunas was elite shot-blocker), and so much rebounding help that Lebron was 3rd or 4th on his team in rebounds for every season except 09'..

33-year old Ben Wallace was added in 08', so he compares to say, 35-year old Rodman being added to the Bulls and stinking in the 97' and 98' Playoffs (3/8 for entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in 98' Playoffs..

Overall, the following teams had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls - 07' Cavs', 09' Cavs, 10' Cavs, 11', Heat, 12', Heat, 20' Lakers, and 21' Lakers.

4 chips in 10 years with 2 star teammates doesn't compare to 6 chips in 10 years with 1 star teammate (89-98').

Lebron had 2 Pippen's from 2011-2017 but only won 3 chips and then was 2nd-leading scorer to AD in the 2020 regular season and playoffs, so that wasn't even a 1st option ring.

All of this shows that Lebron is objectively inferior to MJ.

,

It wasn't that great, that's why - everyone was taking a 1-star team to the Finals at that time such as Iverson, Dwight and Kidd twice... The 2000's East is the only conference in history that was won by multiple 1-star teams.

Furthermore, Lebron's Eastern run was invalidated when the Finals confirmed that a 22 on 35% bum achieved it..

Again, everyone was winning the East at that time, even 22 on 35% bums like Lebron... And don't cry about age because many guys played better at 22 such as Amare averaging 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs, or Magic getting FMVP at 20, or MJ breaking the playoff record at 23 against the Celtics (23-year lebron averaged 26 on 35% against the 08' Celtics).

Ultimately, Lebron never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, so he never beat a top team with weak help in 21 years .. He can't have carry-jobs vs top teams because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help.. He can't beat top teams with 18 on 38% from Mo, whereas MJ always won with that - MJ's brand of ball was superior, so he could actually WIN with scoring.

The Mavs didn't shoot that great from 3, so great shooting like we have today wasn't needed back then - Lebron simply wet the bed with 18 ppg and zero clutch points in the series (last 5 within 5) - he wasted a 27 ppg performance by Wade, who outplayed Dirk.

Jordan won 2 Finals with Pippen at 15.7 on 34% and 15.7 on 41%, while also winning 6 Finals with Pippen at 19 on 42% overall, so why can't Lebron win a Finals with weak help?.. Teammates are always banged up on the 3rd leg of the 3-peat, so MJ averaged 41 to 3-peat, while Lebron averaged 13 less and lost by 13 ppg against the 14' Spurs.. lebron learned from this and shot twice as much in 2015 - he did much better with a weaker cast against a better team.

And the bigger issue is that how did Lebron have garbage teams compared to the "not 6, not 7" expectation?... How did he win 54 games with Wade/Bosh or 53 games with Kyrie/Love?... that's ABSURDLY horrible and below expectation of what an all-timer should do with 2 star teammates... So the issue is that the 14' Heat should've been massive favorites heading into every Finals instead of crappy 50-win teams and underdogs...

They were underdogs to baby Westbrick!!!! ... let that sink in... that's how crappy the teams are that bron-ball produces.. We know for a fact that Lebron-ball underachieves the talent expectation because Lebron either falls to underdog or loses with preseason favorites (loses with favored talent) from 2011-2016 (6 straight years), except the Allen miracle.

Nonsense - the Lakers have FAR more talent on their roster - for example, AD is a far superior sidekick (top 75) than Jamal Murray (not even an all-star).

Lebron simply underachieved favored talent again by being the hottest team heading into the 23' playoffs and many people thought he would win the title after beating the Warriors in the 2nd Round, but then he was SWEPT by a 1-star team...

Lebron has lost to many 1-star teams as the outright favorite (09', 11') or with the hotter team that had more momentum and that people were higher on (23').

If you're giving me the fact that Lebron isn't coachable, this means that his skillset lacks strategic capacity - he can never play the best brand of ball, and is therefore inferior to Kobe.

Since he can't play the best basketball, he mostly loses with every cast that he ever had - he never proved that he could mostly win with a cast like Curry winning 3 chips in 4 years, or Kobe 3-peating, or duncan winning 3 in 5, or MJ winning 6 in 7... These guys showed that they can mostly win with a team and have an "unbeatable" team for a stretch, while Lebron proved that he mostly loses regardless of cast (due to the aforementioned inability to play the best brand of ball, aka uncoachable)

A coach has complete freedom to run ANY offense with Kobe, whereas a coach's hands are tied with Lebron and forced to put the ball in his hands and struggle against the top teams like Luka-ball is struggling now.. Since bron-ball imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, it can't develop chemistry and must rely on more talent (more help) - so it's a talent-based way of trying to win, which means Lebron never really learned how to win (chemistry)...
.

Jokic has played half a career and has only reached the NBA finals once. If he retired today his name would never come up in GOAT conversations. 6 all star seasons. Not enough. He's be remembered as a guy that had a great peak.

And calling Jordans career 15 seasons is generous. His Wizards seasons are not part of his GOAT case and are basically a footnote. Another year he only came back to play 17 games at the end of the season and got knocked off in the second round of the playoffs when he should've been playing peak basketball. Another season he missed almost the entire year due to injury.

His career is basically judged on 11 seasons of play. Just like you said.

And I'm still fine with considering him GOAT.