Progressive bounty tournaments

Not that I've ever played a multi-day event with more than one flight, but for me it'd be more about when I'd need to come back assuming I make day 2. If in the situation you describe everyone is coming back for day 2 the day after day 1D, then I think the EV from being better rested rather than having to play two full days of poker back to back is worth more than coming up against maybe a slightly better field. Missing out on a couple of small bounties is more than outweighed if you make a horrific ICM decision at the business end of the tournament through being fatigued

Definitely like the idea of a day off before a Day 2, especially if Day 1s run 'late' with an 'early' restart to Day 2. That being said I'm not so sure you are living in Donkey World on a Day 1A since most Recs won't schedule their travel to include those days off.

So I think Day 1D would have both Donkey Recs AND the tournament Regs who've already fired multiple bullets. That sounds like a good formula for moving lots of chips around .. but are you the type of Player who thrives in that environment? Yes, you can sit there and try to trap and/or play all your spots aggro, but if you are card dead then you're just sitting there bleeding away with no Plan B available 'tomorrow'.

The WSOP ME formula is always to play 1B/1C to get that extra day off (2D) before the field is combined on Day 3.

While I don't think this affects this Wynn tournament, you also have to consider what days the satellite winners will play. IMO the fields are a lot weaker on days when entries are satty heavy. GL

Would it matter to you if two days of rest in-between means two more days of paying for a hotel and taking off work?

That's going to depend on personal circumstances, isn't it?

Yes, exactly the same way as preferring rest over playing 12ish hours on back to back days.

But that's the main reason why the last flight of tournaments like that is always by far the busiest.

At least years WSOP main event I think the number of players on the first 3 days combined was smaller than day 4 including late reg.

Wow I never thought I'd see the day that I would disagree with Fossilman...

First of all, JimL I agree with everything you said in your post. I mostly play tournaments now (I play cash only when I get knocked out early basically)

I register early (before it starts) so that I can play against the bad players before they lose their stacks. This is especially important in bounty tournaments because registering late not only puts you in against better players but the % of players you can win a bounty off of is much less than when you start and several levels in. The one catch is that I suck at Bounty tournaments so I often have a below average stack early on and then don't win many bounties. I once chopped a $200 Bounty tournament 3-ways at the Borgota where the bounty was $100 on my second buy-in and I won exactly zero bounties. lol. But I did get to keep my $100 bounty at chop time...

The other thing to consider about registering early is that a lot of places (including the Wynn) have few players at tables at the start. This even happens in some WSOP events (like the Main on occasion). Because most players don't have as much experience playing shorthanded in tournaments (and in cash games) they mostly don't widen their ranges pre-flop which is a vulnerability. It also means that because I have widened mine they will be seeing hands that I raised with OTB or CO sometimes like J4s or 75o that wouldn't happen at full tables. So later in the tournament the early players will be misjudging me.

The thing about registering late improving hourly winrates is also on the money. This is even more true for tournaments that haven't hit their guarantees. Though in Vegas I have seen strange things happen late. I was at a Venetian $600 multi day tournament with like a $600,000 Guarantee back when they were using the warehouse next door, and there was like two hours to go before registration ended and they had only $400,000 so I was feeling really good about min cashing and then they hit the guarantee. So I think in Vegas if a tournament is below a guarantee calls go out to professionals and they swarm.

The reason I like to play in the last Day 1 (of any tournament) is because there are typically far more players that day. Usually its a Saturday (so people will have just arrived). The field will be weak. A lot weaker than the first Day 1's. The Day off thing can matter if you are on an incoming flight from across the country but in general I will take a day off (or 2) prior to the last Day 1.

There are reasons I would play in early Day 1's and that is because the guarantee is high, the buy-in is lowish and I want to take as many chances as possible to get into Day 2. Because I prefer not to rebuy lateish in a multi-day tournament, I can re-enter early on the next Day 1. Also every now and then if you make it into day 2 more than one time they may pay you for the shortest stack. At the Golden Nugget they had a $300 (I think) tournament with like 9 day 1's over 3 days. The guarantee was like $300,000 but they hit well over $500,000. They would give you $1,500 the 2nd time (or more) you got into day 2 and you got to keep your biggest stack (which was like 24th place money where 300 players made it to the final day).

Registering late in conventional tournaments isn't just about the hourly rate; late registration gets an overlay in EV because of the dead money from players who have busted out before late registration ends. Example: because roughly 1/3 of the starters on Day 1 of the Main event bust out, buying in in for $10,000 on Day 2 yields a stack whose equity in the prize pool is something like $13,000.

In a PKO, however, much of the equity is in the form of bounties. Late registration poses two problems:

First, the bounties of players who have busted out are not available to the newly registered player, and their equity is less than that of someone who shows up at the start of play.

Second, the late entry comes with a starting stack, and as time goes on the average stack size goes up. To win another player's bounty, one must cover them. The more stacks one does not cover, the fewer bounties one is in a position to collect. A late entry to a PKO is substantially handicapped compared to early entries.

Where did you disagree with me? I discussed how much players are willing to gamble in different starting flights. You are talking about buying in early vs late. The two things aren't really that related.

This is pretty faulty logic.

Prove it. Show your work.

The equity of your stack increases when other players are eliminated, but nowhere near as much as you state. Kenny Hallaert did an analysis of this, and showed that when half the field is gone, a starting stack is worth about 5% more than it was at the start of the tournament. So, buying into day 2 of the Main Event, with 1/3 of the field gone, would only increase their equity by 3% or so.

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cefj...

I find that players who are GTO/Solver oriented gamble after the rebuy period is over regardless of whether it is the final day 1 or not. They are looking to go deep not min cash.

The field quality on the first day 1 is typically much better than on the last day 1. It isn't the hyper aggro players that stand out for me. It's the players like you who are incredibly amazing and don't make mistakes. Your reads on players like me are always outstanding. If there is only one player at a table I can take advantage of, then its going to be a long tough Day 1.

I was playing at the Venetian $1,600 multiple Day 1 tournament in March recently. I chose Day 1C. It was a good choice. There were six players who limped pre-flop before I was eliminated. Two of them were eliminated (one was eliminated a 2nd time when he appeared in the same seat, which just happened to be on my right, after re-buying), two of them were sadly moved to other tables, one of them was short stacked, and the sixth was the chip leader at the table (not because of his skillset but because he had sucked out a few times). This was a $1,600 tournament (not a bounty). My guess is that Day 1A was nothing like this.

I look forward to seeing you at the WSOP. I hope you are on my right.

Imagine a tournament that had three starting flights. Each flight is sold out. When flight A is completed haft the entrants are eliminated. Flight B, 30 percent. And flight C, 60 percent. Each flight is conducted in a closed environment - no one knows the results of each flight until they show up for day 2. What flight do you choose to enter for the highest EV?

You don't enter any flight in his example. You buy-in at the beginning of day 2.

Greg provided an interesting link. For easy examples you can also use an ICM calculator.

I don't disagree with the idea that registering later gets an overlay. However I will just note that I am curious if that overlay more than makes up for the opportunity to play against a bunch of donkeys who are almost trying to give you their chips before they bust.

I can literally see both sides of that argument and I was trying to avoid it. I was trying to highlight the fact that bounties make a difference.

Yes, the Bounties definitely need to be a factor. But you also need to factor in your style of play as well. If you aren't an edge-pushing Player that is 'more' willing to put your whole stack in, then it's probably better to still lean towards Stack equity than Bounty equity.

I played in a Bounty and the Player that busted me hadn't collected a Bounty until mine .. I finished 4th of 126 and collected 7 Bounties along the way, which allowed me to Net cash out more than they did finishing 3rd. GL

I was playing in a PLO progressive bounty tournament yesterday. Saw the darnedest thing.

Player A has about $55,000. Player B has about $38,000. Player B has position on Player A.

Preflop is yada yada yada, maybe even mutli way. I don't remember. Flop is a bet and a call. I do not remember who bet and who called, but it is just the two players.

On the turn, player A bets, player B tanks, and then reraises. Player A tanks and reraises back. The weirdness comes in that he reraised to an amount that left Player B with about $1200 behind. Player B just calls leaving himself with $1200 behind. River goes check check.

Player A says he completely missed with his combo draw and is essentially playing AQ high from his hand. Player B looks exasperated and turns over a hand that involved mossing a straight draw and the nut flush draw. He is playing A10 high from his hand.

So player A wins a huge pot of nearly 80k with just AQ high. The problem is, he didn't win player Bs bounty. Once the turn goes check, bet, raise, call. It was clearly a mistake. Why did player A only leave Player B with $1200 behind (with $80k in the pot)? At this point if he is willing to get that much in, he should have been trying to get his opponents bounty and get him all in. Why bot shove reraise on the turn?

A simple, basic, fundamental error. He lost a bounty over it.

These are the reason bounty tournaments are so juicy.

Same tournament. Gets to the river in a situation where player A has a single $5000 chip, a stack of $1000 chips, and a stack of $500 chips. Player B easily has him covered. Not even close. It gets to the river and Player A thinks and finally checks. Player B grabs 4 $5000 chips and doesn't say anything and throws them out as a bet.

If you asked me, I am pretty sure the $20,000 covers Player A, but it was close.

Player A tanks forever. A really long time. Really long. Ridiculously long. Finally a clock is called. Floor comes over and does the countdown. With a few seconds remaining Player A thows in a single chip to call. Cards are turned over. Player A loses. Dealer starts counting his stack and realizes he has $21,100 in chips.

He gives Player A his remaining $1100 and takes the rest and pushes the pot to Player B. Player B insists thay he has Player A covered. Dealer explains that it doesn't matter, Player B only bet $20,000. He didn't verbalize anything and just threw 4 $5000 chips forward without comment. It was just a $20,000 bet. Player B argues that he was trying to put Player A all in. The dealer carefully explains that while thay may have been his intent, he didn't verbalize anything so his $20k bet stands. Player B continues to argue, but the floor is still nearby and listens to the dealer and player. Afterwards the floor asks if anyone at the table heard Player B say all in. No one says they heard it. Player B realizes he effed up so he surrenders.

He missed out on a bounty simply because he was lazy and threw out 4 chips thinking that covered his oppenent rather than saying all in. Dumb. To be fair to him, I am pretty sure everyone else at the table thought that 4 $5000 chips covered his opponent, but most would have thought it close. Why do it that way? Why not say all in?

My whole point about these posts is that we (as a community) often talk about not wanting poker to be about which players have the most knowledge of the tomes that line the poker room wall and instead make it about the best hand winning.

Yet in bounty tournaments the intracracties of rules minuitia comes up often enough that I think knowledge of rules often overwhelmes skill in such tournaments.