Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Aggressive 6-max high limit game $50/$100 with $100 bb ante, squeezes are not uncommon, first to act opens standard $300 (pro but not a nit) and we are playing short with 30bb, AQo in MP, we 3! 3.5x $1350 and BB puts us all in $3000, original raiser folds and we call off the last half of our stack. cooler if we run into better, or avoidable? AQo is usually a call in this configuration hj v.mp but (1) we are short and this is a pretty good hand 30bb eff. (2) do we want to risk getting squeezed out pre? and (3) the opener is not that tight and we could be ahead.

I'd think with the ante you should just rip it in over an open if you're going to play but I don't short stack nor do I play that big.

You clearly can’t 3 bet fold so yep, either flatting or 3/gii

Hero's 3B size is ridiculously large for this stack depth -- You have to call the four-bet all-in, but you basically did this to yourself. Either raise to something like 2.5x to 750, or just rip it.

At 30bb cash I think you need to take more of a tournament approach if you're dealing with 'decent' opponents. 30bb is a bit much to rip AQo to an open, so I tend to lean towards a smaller 3b and go with table dynamic against a shove. In a tournament this is 3b/fold .. and perhaps here when you include a 'non squeeze' comment as well.

I've asked in other threads that we need to define 'squeeze' .. IMO it's a cold 3b/4b with a below average holding for the spot. So I don't think you can 'ever' squeeze with AA. Certainly it may 'look' like a squeeze and then you end up with AA, betting for value/isolation. So I guess a squeeze is more of a 'steal'.

Anyways .. I'm a fairly conservative PF cash Player, so the AQo is getting pitched 'a lot' without other table dynamics to help lean me otherwise. GL

@answer20

I think you’re just going to go down a semantics rabbit whole with the “defining a squeeze” discussion. I get your thinking but it’s just never going to catch on.

Blah, I don’t really like anything here. I don’t like the 3!, I don’t like the 3! sizing and I don’t like calling it off.

AQo is like the bottom of a 3! vs standard UTG range. Even if the V is loose, how loose is he? He’s a pro, so I can’t imagine even if he’s “not that tight,” that he’s going to be incompetent and should understand what is going on. I guess if we expect him to call OOP wide, it’s not as bad, but if dudes a pro, he shouldn’t really be flatting OOP much with the stack sizes. So we really should expect V either 4! or fold, and I don’t particularly like using AQo just to get folds from dominated hands.

AQo would be a 3!/fold vs a 4! because we’re really never doing great vs a 4! range. We get dominated by AA/KK/QQ/AK, most Vs aren’t going to 4! a ton of Qx we dominate and minimal Ax we dominate. Do we expect V to be getting way out of line vs an uncapped range that just 3! an UTG uncapped range? So because of all of that, I just don’t think this should be a 3!

The sizing you use really promotes V to 4! or fold because what actually has equity to call this raise? You could achieve basically the same equity denial by raising to like $750. The sizing used, you put 45% of your stack in, I’m not sure how you can really ever fold. If his 4! range is {QQ+, AK, AQs} you have 26.2% equity and you need to call 1650 to win 6250, so 26.4% equity.

But with that being said, is he jamming that wide? V should know you can virtually never fold, so V should be jamming for pure value and never as a bluff, which is why I don’t like your call. I would guess {JJ+, AK}, which AQo would be 28.1% against, so a call is slightly +EV

I think my line for this hand is to call the UTG open. We either get to see a flop and play poker IP or someone squeezes. If someone squeezes and UTG 4! we get to fold for cheap. If UTG calls, we can evaluate fold/call/jam. If UTG folds, we can call AI or jam ourselves with an underrepped hand.

At 6-max, isn't UTG the new just the lowjack and not really supposed to be the same range as 8 or 9 handed UTG?

What do you think an appropriate LJ opening range is in an aggressive 50/100 (100 ante) game?

And then after that, what do you think an appropriate 3! range to the above range is when you’re 30bb effective?

I am not even contemplating playing these stakes but my guess is if it's aggressive the LJ rfi range is something like 88+/AT+/Axs/KQ/KJs/QJs/JTs/9Ts/KTs/K9s.

I would be 3-betting AQs+/JJ+/KQs/AQo+. I would say AQo would be near bottom of 3-bet range I just don't see how its not a 3-bet. I could be entirely wrong but my point was 6-max "utg" is much different than 8 or 9 max.

Because stack sizes are relevant. Most of the time, these steaks are played ungodly deep, and then it’s not a problem because V can play with a large number of hands we’re ahead of.

But we’re 30bb deep; what is V doing after he gets 3!? He can’t really do anything other than 4! or fold. We are crushed against a 4! range and using AQo to pick up a single raise against weak hand is just poor utilization of a hand as strong as AQo

Totally disagree.

Villain is opening 3bbs. If we 3b and take it down pre, we immediately win 3bbs (open) + 1bb (BB blind)+ 1bb (BB ante) + 0.5bb (SB blind). We are adding 5.5bbs to our 30bb stack if we 3b and take it down. There is no rake in this game. So we are adding more than 18% to our stack when we take it down preflop uncontested. That's not insignificant at all.

There are a lot of spots in MTTs where someone will open shove 10bbs to take down SB/BB/ante to add 25% or so ot Hero's stack. MTTs tend to feature some chip preservation due to ICM.

This is a cash game where we don't have to worry about chip preservation and ICM considerations. So 3b AQ offsuit here to add 18% to our stack uncontested is actually pretty similar to open shoving 10bbs in an MTT to pick up blinds/antes.

BTW, we are not crushed by the opener's 4b range. His willingness to 4b wide against a short stack is significantly higher than his willingness to 4b wide versus a deep stack.

I think opener should be opening somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-23%.
We can probably 3bet maybe 5-6% AQo is in there and shouldn't fold.

With an ante in play, the lowjack open should be wider than in a standard 6max game, not narrower.

Getting stacked playing with a 30bb stack in an ante game is unavoidable.

I would suggest reading “Kill Everyone”. This is essentially a tournament question since its short stacks and zero rake (and zero icm, which is basically true when far from the money). Kill everyone suggests a “resteal” period up to 15 CSI (basically stack size divided by all the money in the pot, so here you have 12 CSI, although if you implement this strategy id expect you to get to 13-15 CSI somewhat often by blindstealing) where you should be 3 bet jamming over 2-2.5x raises, and it gives a table of ranges based on your opponent’s perceived raising range, and youll be jamming far wider than whats suggested here especially in btn vs BB type situations.

I'll answer your question this way:

Solving HU shove or fold scenarios is your basic semi-bluffing math that any endeavoring poker player should be able to solve quite easily. You solve for the MDF of the defender by seeing how much the shover is winning by stealing (ie: pot * fold equity) PLUS how much they win when called and win (ie: size of the pot when called (ie: pot+2*bet) times your equity when called[1] times how often they're calling (ie: 1-FE))) EQUALS how much you lose when called and lose (ie: bet times 1-equity times 1-FE). Then you can use THAT fold equity to solve for the range the stealer can shove with that would be worth at least 0ev using the same semi-bluff math.

[1] You can use a placeholder range with a sample of representative hands from an example "too wide" shoving range to get a good enough answer here IMO.

Solving for 3-way shove or fold scenarios is something anyone can do who doesn't get PTSD doing high school level math. Compounding probabilities means you have to use the FOIL method to solve for (1-FE)^2, you'll be using the quadratic formula, all that fun stuff, and of course the equation is exponentially longer because you're solving for when both fold, when one calls, when the other calls, and when both call. I've done it by hand a small handful of times, and that's enough for me to feel like I get the gist and not solve for it myself again.

Solving 4-way+ shove or fold spots is beyond my ability and/or patience to solve by hand, though it doesn't involve any concepts beyond what I've already done; the equations are just much larger.

But that doesn't answer your question: you didn't ask about a shove or fold spot. You asked about raising and then folding. This is adding two layers of complexity:

• 1. 1) Now your stealing range can't just account for opponents reaching a minimum defense threshold and shoving a range that can't be exploited by that. It now has to account for all the ways each of the restealing strategies each of the villains can take.
  
  
• 2. 2) Then you have to do MDF maths *for yourself* against *their* resteals. Honestly, though, this is the easy part. The hard part is knowing what your steal range is in the first place in light of this expanded tree.
  

And you didn't ask about what should your range be: you asked at what stack size does a given hand become (specifically) a raise/fold. That involves solving for a different variable, which I don't know how to answer. I imagine it's something someone who's better at algebra could answer quite easily, but I'm kicking the can.

In other words, some of the underlying math is pretty straightforward, and I think anyone serious about playing short stack and tournaments should be conversant in that math so they can have a more intuitive understanding to both aid memory and to bridge the gaps where memory won't serve you. BUT it's unreasonable to expect anyone to answer these questions by hand from scratch for a 6-handed game and (as Tomark pointed out) much smarter people and machines have already created charts that answer these questions.

Truly, a low-stress strat question.

$1-$2 but I put on a $4 UTG live-straddle.

CO open limps, Button limps, SB limps, BB limps, we check 82ss in the BB and see a flop 5 ways.

Flop: KsQsTd. SB checks, BB checks, we check, CO checks. Button bets $20. Both blinds fold. Button started the hand with $200 and we cover. What should we do?

Is it too late to take back the straddle?

We're getting poor 2:1 odds (not even if you include rake) to chase a pretty obvious draw OOP (noting that 3 of our outs put a 4-liner on board for even worse IO). And I'm not looking to attempt to get anyone off their hand that has just PSB the flop versus the world.

But I've seen some of your HHs, so obviously inb4 you call, bink the Js, and then get paid off for stacks in a raising war with 77, ldo.

GStep1:playinagreatgame;Step2:therearenootherstepsG

"Don't go broke in a limped pot"

1) You Straddled .. what's your range image when UTG/Straddle?
2) The Board is all cards you could/should've raised with, eh? So what's your story when you Donk-lead Turn?

3) You have an obvious draw with bad odds and even worse reverse implied odds .. but you could chop running 9-J
4) Is this Player going to pay you on Turn or River .. Is this Player going to go broke chasing a 4-flush?

5) Can you steal from B with a polar River Donk?
6) What does a pot bet mean from B? (It's the right thing to do regardless of holdings IMO)

Just don't see long term gain from this spot .. I just fold, showing the 2s and saying "Flush no good" .. GL

I just folded it. Like a WOMAN.

take your politics to the trans thread