Standard line w/ AA this deep or overplay?

I don't like the sizing PF. LP in SB first to act has a hand that he likes. I would 3! to 80.

OTT we block flush draws with the Ad and AK. What range are you targeting for value with the overbet?

I would make it larger preflop OOP against 2 players. I understand it would be a disaster if you look it preflop, but not good to play it that way.

Would make a smaller cbet. Want cbet to not give so much information. 3-betting and then cbetting 75% pot looks strong.

No reason to overbet the turn when you can also bet the river. Line looks a little face up than you have AA/KK/AK, although you could also play a draw that way.

With call/call preflop, you could be worried villain has a pp and a set. Nothing really likely but 88. Only one combination of 77. Is he passive enough to flat preflop twice with KK? Some low stakes players could have 87s, but there is also only one combination of that.

I only calculate SPR on the flop. Not on later streets.

If V is a complete drooler or classic calling station, then overbet. Lower stake players have a tendency to "I put you on AK". You 3! PF, then bet ~80% PSB OTF. You are taking a strong line. Once V calls OTF, his continuing range is weighted to Kx. Let's keep him invested.

As far as commitment - it's not about if we are technically committed or if V should know whether he is committed or not. It's about forcing V to be committed in practical terms. Think of the pot odds V will be hard pressed to turn down on the river with a smaller bet sizing by you OTT...

PRE - 3B bigger. At least $65, but $75-$80 is probably a little better.

FLOP - no need to c-bet so large on this board. Anything around 1/3 pot is fine. I would probably just "same bet" it, to whatever we bet pre, plus maybe $5-$10 more, since MP is splashy and SB is stuck.

TURN - why are we over-bet shoving? We can bet as little as $200-$250 here, get looked up light, and jam about 1/2 pot on river.

I don’t like it.

With these stack sizes, and holding the Ad, I almost wonder if the best line isn’t to check the Turn and then hope he leads the River and we can raise all-in (on any card that’s not a King). Like, if he leads $300 with KJ or something and we shove he’s in a miserable spot with the price we’re laying him.

I just think betting 40% on Turn and then again on the River (with a shove) makes our hand a bit too transparent? But it obviously can’t be very wrong, and is certainly the more traditional way to play it.

It’s totally standard to get this hand all-in at these stacks and he’s a loose passive so it can’t be TOO bad.

In theory though, flop should be smaller and the turn is a better card for him than it is for us so over betting is definitely not good for our range.

But again, fine (if suboptimal) in a vacuum with this hand against this opponent.

Pre seems the worst street. Flop/turn is whatever without more information.

You labeled SB as loose passive, so when he makes it 16 over a BTN straddle ($6?) what does that mean?
I've seen SBs play the worst way possible vs. a BTN straddle and raise big with good hands and then limp or raise small with bad ones, is it also possible he's just raising to 16 a lot to annoy the BTN? Or somehow forgot that it's now 1/3/6 and raised to 16 for 1/3?

Like depending on those answers V can have like KQ/AK/QQ+ if this is a tight raise to a bad size, or if it's just a wacky small raise like any 1 pair any draw.

You also said he's very sticky pre. ... so I'd probably go at least $90 (assume he raised to a normal $30, and then you 3x that IP).

Obviously if he's got a tight range pre. due to his open then on this flop you should be a little careful, because he's probably not stacking off QQ and you block AK (although still 2x AK combos. than KK).

Then if he's still got a looser range pre. he has a decent number of 1 pair and draw hands that are way more likely to pay turn to see if they hit but then fold river (and if they don't fold river they aren't folding turn big bets either). Ofc. with K high lots of people will assume you always have a good pair here (but maybe not this guy). Also, to echo this months saying, checking turn to get bets/bluffs from those hands on the river seems really bad ... he's way more likely to call bad than bet/bluff bad.

Preflop: Loose/passive reads of both opponents, and you say SB is super sticky pre. Pretty deep with V. A bigger 3bet is definitely in order here, $80 sounds good, could argue for more.

Flop: I don't hate the big bet, but I feel we can get called so much lighter if we size down to $90-100. A lot more stuff like TT/99, 8x/7x, gutters perhaps. We set up stacks to go bet/bet turn & river against V as well.

Turn: TBH the shove isn't bad by any means. I am a bit worried about value cutting ourself here, and think something like ~1/2 pot turn shove river probably performs better.

For those who are worried about the 7x being good for V's range, consider that he called a 3bet and a big flop bet. If the 7x really is good for his range in this case, that means he called pre & flop with something like A7s/97s/76s. This would mean his flop range is gigantic, includes many times more worse SD hands (Kx/8x/2nd pair) and draws. Shoving is perfectly reasonable in this case too. I would still prefer ~$200 turn shove river

I was going off heuristics, so yeah, a 7 turn on specifically at K87 board is going to do as much to block flopped sets and two pairs as it is to give villain trips.

But if it were, say K85 5, then you’d still want to size down even though villain having some 5x means that villain’s range is super wide with Kx/8x and split pairs. Betting large (in theory) allows him to fold more of those hands and continue with a range that’s more concentrated with the hands that caught up to our range.

I wanted to deny equity to FDs, SDs whatever he was in there with as well

Yeah, shove is sort of reasonable on this board. If he has a K or an overpair, he has 2 outs or 5%. You could possibly be semibluffing with AdQd or AdJd.

Would this ever be good with AQ no ♦?

In theory, yes, TPGK blocker that unblocks draws is one of the main pure air bluffs along with hands that block the turn card when going for a turn overbet.

Highly inadvisable in practice though

Yea especially MW. Thx

Did you want V to fold? Shoving seems like

Don’t like turn shove. Might have missed out on some value betting hands like Kx for example.

Seems like a blocker bet against the diamond draw but you have the Ad so you’ve got redraw value so did you want a fold here? I think you lost value if you wanted a fold here.

Also, PF raise should be $75-$80.

The advantage shoving the Turn has (versus betting 40% pot on Turn and River) is that the b40% twice line is essentially one we will never take with a bluff.

We will on occasion overbet shove the turn as a bluff. In fact, I think that’s exactly what we should do with some of our better Flush draws—probably the ones that block his stringer top pair hands, so AQdd, AJdd, QJdd, JTdd, J9dd, etc.

So if our overbetting range here is indeed the right mixture of bluffs and value, we’re solid.

I don’t think there’s any way our B80 / B40 / B40 line can possibly be a bluff anywhere near enough to take it.

(All this said, I still think the best line when we have AdAx at this depth is to check the turn and then raise all-in on any river lead.)

Button straddles? Must be some garbage midwest poker room?

In terms of your bet.......answer these questions:

1. Does anything that I have beat call my massive overbet?
2. Does anything that I beat fold to my massive overbet

You made a big raise on the flop, so the person either has a big hand or a big draw. You want to bet enough to make the draws not have positive pot odds to call, but you don't want to fold out the K hands that are there.

The ONLY thing that calls you on the river is trips or a full house. You have lost value against any king x hands. If your goal was to get the draws out you did it but at the risk that the V, who was the last to call and would have the widest range has you beat.

Also, in terms of your hate for your opponent here, you can't really tell who is good. You can't tell if he's played his hands well or not. Someone can just have a session where they hit nothing or make waves and run into it. "Clearly not good" is not the same as "doesn't seem good". It's a game of imperfect information.

What would you have done if V donk shoved turn?

Snap. His shove would need to be like at least a 2x overbet to consider folding.

Well if 40% pot doesn’t get called enough by hands worse than AA, then you should really start betting that much with your bluffs.

Result:

I think it's fundamentally fine. Going a bit bigger preflop would have led to the turn between being ~pot sized which might have worked better (but easy to say in hindsight). I think the large flop bet is fine, everything is a bit awkward, 3 streets might look prettier but on the whole trying to get it in quickly against two bad opponents is OK

Nice hand, Banana. Thanks for posting.

Re-reading some of the posts - if we know our customer doesn't like to fold K9 to KQ, and know our image, I can see value in jamming, to make it look like we're on the NFD.

I'm assuming we weren't jamming to target V's flush draws, because I don't think he has very many, and none that are going to call our jam. But it's a paired board, so V might not think we'd jam a flush draw.

When he double-flats pre, he could have some 88, 77, 87s, A7s, K8, or K7s. If he has one of those, we're just toast.

But if KQ is the top of his range, and we could have some 88/77/A7s/87s, in addition to AA/KK, we might be putting too much pressure on too much of his range, and making it easy for him to get away from a lot of worse KX holdings.

When we bet almost 80% pot on the flop, I'd think he'd be folding out everything that isn't at least KX or a decent flush draw, if he even continues with his flush draws. When we jam turn, he's definitely folding any flush draws he might have, and we're getting snapped by all his trips or better. We definitely don't want to make him fold all his KX.

If we bet 1/3 pot on flop, and 1/2 pot on turn, the pot would be $600 going to the river, with a pot sized bet left behind, that we could then jam on a brick. If we sized up a little bit with our 3B pre, it should be even easier to get stacks in by the river.

I'd be interested in hearing what other people think our range looks like here, when we 3B pre, from the LJ, over a SB open from a loose-passive player. Does the SB's raise size, or our 3B size change anything? Calling a 1.5x pot jam on the turn with KJo seems pretty ambitious to me.