LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I watched a lot of Suns games those years. Nash was what made everything on that team work. Amar'e was not a guy that could create the offense by himself. The next year, without Amar'e, the Sun's still went 54-28 and lost in the conference finals. And Nash got his 2nd MVP. And the year after that, with Amar'e back, they went 61-21 and Nash finished 2nd in MVP voting.

1st, 1st, and 2nd. It was an incredible run by Nash. I've never seen a player make everyone better and run a better offense as a traditional point guard. That's more top 2 mvp finishes right there than your lol #2 all time Kobe had in a 20 year career.

During his peak 10 year stretch Nash's teams worst record was 46-36, and that was the only year his team didn't win 50 games.

It would be interesting to make a list of the most selfish team destroying players ever.

Marbury, Carmelo, Westbrook, Gilbert Arenas, Rick Barry, Kenny Anderson, Sebastian Telfair, Derrick Coleman, Josh Smith

Interesting how many are from NYC. That "the city" attitude gets them confused.

The Celtics developed into an organic juggernaut because Tatum's skillset allows great chemistry development, fits and brand of ball.

Otoh, Luka and Lebron never did so they always need more talent (more help) and cannot produce a dominant champion or dynasty regardless of cast.

Similar to the Nuggets last year, the Celtics don't seem like they need more help, do they?... It seems like they could just run it back.. They have tremendous chemistry, so they don't need more talent (more help)... This obviously contrasts with Luka and Lebron's ball-dominance and massive team assist deficits.

Regarding FMVP, the reality is that the Mavs' defense was geared to stop Tatum, which helped Brown and also the fact that it was a quick series helped too because Tatum was figuring it out and would've won FMVP if the series went 6

Celts made 2 trades last summer to turn into juggernaut.

Jordan / Tatum ball / expert jump shooter brand of ball delivered 4 out 5 garbage games and yet still won the championship.

That means Jordan brand of ball, aka jump shooting ball needs a stacked team in order to win, like any other NBA team that wins a chip most years.

Evidenced by the fact that Brown wins FMVP and voters refused to award Expertz Jump shooter Tatum / jordan ball after witnessing 4 crap level games.

Expert Jump Shooter Fraudguy narrative just took a gigantic L last night.

I would also like to congratulate the philosophers in this thread that enthusiastically gave fallguy their ringing endorsement, only to be embarrassed.

They look really funny this morning. Well they look funny all the time but this one just takes the cake.

Remember folks, when hitching your bandwagon to people that don't watch NBA games since 1998, they will inevitably run into a train wreck with you in it.

The stupidest part of the past month ITT (and that’s saying a lot) is that Tatum doesn’t play anything like Jordan and Tatum ALSO doesnt play anything like Fallguy says he does.

Look at his shot chart - he took literally one shot a game from 15-18 feet. The next time Tatum comes off a pin down and hits an elbow jumper will be the first. The entire Celtics offense is spread it out, let one of their 4 guys do a dribble drive then swing it around for a three. Tatum is elite at that, Brown is elite at that, White and Holliday are very good at that. It all works together but it has nothing to do with whether Tatum can hit an 16 footer.

Similar to Amare, guys like Bill Russell or Malone needed to be set up, but still won MVP over Cousy and Stockton... And the "team turnaround" argument doesn't work because that isn't used to determine MVP - many guys had bigger turnarounds like AD in 2020 (lottery to champion), or Pau in 2008 (1st Round to Finals), or Rasheed Wallace in 2004... And everyone remembers that Mo provided the spacing that Lebron's stiff arm needed in 2009, which is similar to Nash providing the spacing that Amare's stiff arm needed in 05'.

In addition to the "team turnaround" argument being a secondary factor to begin with, one can question how much Nash turned the team around because Amare had his breakout season to carry the team statistically in 05', while the team also got rid of a historic, Westbrook-like "cancer" in Marbury..

So there's no way Nash deserved it in 2005... Regarding 2006, the team added Raja Bell, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, Barbosa, Eddie House and James Jones in 2006 but they still fell off a lot - 54 wins with these guys plus leading-scorer Shawn Marion isn't impressive or worthy of MVP, plus it was Amare's organic journey.. The team quickly returned to 60+ wins and top seed when Amare returned in 2007... Nash was simply the piece that unlocked the offense similar to Mo in 2009 or Rasheed Wallace in 04' with the Pistons and countless other examples... AD turned the Lakers from lottery to champion but didn't sniff MVP consideration... Pau turned the Lakers around but it was still Kobe's MVP...

Damn, I just watched the end of game 1 bulls vs Magic 1995. Absolutely epic choke job by Jordan to lose the game at the end. It's funny how the narrative of his clutchness (deserved) causes these moments to wash away. If LeBron blew a game like that fallguy would have 64000 posts in this thread about it. Epic bedwetting.

the bolded above is the key - 1 of 4 - not the same guy every time.

and that's just how the play starts - once the initial drive occurs, there are other movements

since tatum's skillset doesn't rely on ball-domination, he doesn't hog the assists - hogging the assists yields a low-assist team and low ball movement.. Indeed, Luka's Mavs were destroyed in team assists just like Lebron was destroyed in team assists for every series loss in the last 10 years.

So that’s due to Tatums “style” as opposed to the fact that they have three other guys who can do the same thing at a high level?

You think if White and Holiday swapped places with Josh Green and PJ Washington then Celtics would still have more team assists?

There's a formula for choke factor:

regular efficiency - clutch efficiency = choke factor

Jordan had no choke factor because his efficiency was 50% on playoff game-winners (9/18), compared to 37% for Lebron - so Lebron has a massive choke factor because he shoots like 55% normally..

In addition to being brickcity in the clutch, Lebron is a turnover machine in the clutch - he has the most turnovers of all-time and the reason the Cavs lost the 2009 ECF as a -700 favorite is because their primary ballhandler turned into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (12 TO per 48 min of clutch-time).

But back to Jordan - in addition to shooting 50% on game-winners, Jordan also had minimal choke factor in clutch-time (last 5 within 5)... Jordan shot 48% on 3.6 clutch attempts per game in the 97' and 98' Playoffs, compared to 40% on 3.0 attempts for Lebron in the 06-20' Playoffs... So Jordan shot much better despite 20% higher clutch burden (attempts).

Regarding the 95' Playoffs, his advanced numbers like PER, BPM and WS/48 were like his Wizards years - he was clearly in baseball form - imagine how broke Lebron's shot would be if he took 2 years off... But history shows that Jordan lifted a borderline .500 team in 95' to 3-peat in his first full seasons back.. He didn't have to take 7 years to learn how to win this time - he had the blueprint - so it barely took any time at all to achieve championship chemistry the 2nd time around.. We saw Kawhi do this when he went to the Raptors in 2019 - knowing the best brand of ball and championship chemistry is transferrable.

Tatum creates assists by being an ASSISTED PLAYER - approximately 50% of his shots are assisted compared to 18% for Luka.

So even when Tatum scores 50, his teammates are involved and assisted him - the ball is still moving and therefore wearing out the opposing defense so they have less capacity for offense.. Otoh, when Luka gets 50, teammates are frozen out and the ball-domination less defenses rest, so they have more capacity for offense - more capacity to "get hot"..

And that's what we always see - opponents "get hot" on Luka or Lebron-ball.. Nascent fans think this is random, but it isn't.. The opponent's higher team assists and ball movement wears out the opponent's legs (offensive efficiency), so lower team assists is correlated with lower efficiency.. This is based on eye test but the numbers probably back this up and certainly did in these Finals - the Mavs had big assist deficit, and also lower efficiency, aka the Celtics' superior team assists and ball movement wore out the Mavs legs (offensive efficiency).

If the Celtics and Mavs swapped Luka and Tatum, do you actually think the result of this series would be different?

The only difference I can imagine is that Tatum's Mavs probably get swept by Luka's Celtics.

I should probably fact check things I read. But this isn't the thread for that.

We should all be less like TWOG

The result might be the same this year but not next year or future years because we know that Tatum has the assisted skillset required to develop great ball movement and chemistry, while Luka's ball-dominance will quickly destroy the Celtics' chemistry.. Similar to the Nuggets last year, these Celtics look like they can just run it back - their chemistry is so great that the team looks unbeatable - Luka would destroy this and the team would be needing "more help" in no time.

So the point is that Tatum's skillset allows the development of great chemistry and a great team, while Luka's weaker brand of ball will always need a significant talent advantage to win - if Kyrie could've outplayed the Celtics' best player just like he outplayed the Warriors' best player in 2016, then I'm sure Luka would be sitting here with his first title and FMVP... But this isn't peak Kyrie like we saw in 16', 17' and the beginning of 18'... Some players have really short peaks and this is often the case for shorter, explosive guys like Kyrie - I'm impressed that Kyrie was still good enough in his 30's to make the Finals.

Ultimately, Kyrie's Finals appearance this year confirms that Lebron needed more help than MJ because we know that for Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 perennial all-stars and a sidekick that made the Finals without him... Both of these things - 1) sidekicks making the Finals without him and 2) two star teammates - these are objective demonstrations of Lebron's superior help.. So thank you Kyrie for making the finals without Lebron and adding to the mountain of evidence that he's not on MJ's level.

30-point playoff games

Tatum............. 29 in 113 games
Brown............. 13 in 104 games
Pippen.............. 6 in 208 games

Pippen wasn't the kind of guy that could come out and start taking over like Tatum and Brown

Pippen was just a dunker and transition player or system player with low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq) - his ceiling would be Shawn Marion or Iguoudala in today's game or Derrick Jones Jr would be above the floor.. Remember that Pippen was a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, so he needed to land in the perfect spot to get all the development that he needed - he obviously did alongside the first DPOY/MVP in history.

It's remarkable that many media people think that if a player loses a series, it's because they didn't have their "pippen"... But Pippen was actually a low-producer and massive bed-wetter that never hit a big shot and was never a viable option in the clutch - he was the guy that was statistically-carried in every series - guys like "Pandemic P" or KAT's performance in these playoffs mirrors peak Pippen quite well.
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fallguy,
I swear you are the Nostradamus of basketball. You were spot on, Celtics dominate and win in 5 games. Gentleman’s sweep. And Jayson Tatum has the best series game score on the winning team while leading the Celtics in points, rebounds, AND assists. Superior brand of ball, as you’ve taught us.

I think your ability to predict all of this and be right all the time is partially because you’ve played ball at the collegiate level so you just understand it better than most in this thread. Especially the posters that have never played before. But you also seem to have better analytical abilities too. Nice finals prediction.

You got corrected by Google bro.

2005 Nash vs Stockton as a starter (88-03')

88-03' Stockton'..... 22.5 PER.. 7.3 BPM.. 0.217 WS/48.. 7.0 VORP... 14/3/11 on 62 TS... 2.2 spg.. 3.0 tov
2005 Nash.............. 22.0 PER.. 4.4 BPM.. 0.203 WS/48.. 4.7 VORP... 15/3/11 on 61 TS... 1.0 spg.. 3.3 tov

lol even google can't spell the name of this bum - I entered "pippen" and it asked me if i meant "pippin" - perhaps as in 'no tippin' pippin' - that apparently is more notable than his performances..

imagine winning 6 titles with a sidekick that achieved a grand total of SIX playoff games of 30+ points - SIX.. total.... in his playoff career...... his ENTIRE playoff career..... 6 thirty point games....

jordan won 6 rings with that crap.... it's amazing.... it's goat...

MJ beat the likes of Shaq, Malone, and Magic with Pippen barely getting 20 ppg and often worst-ever efficiency, while Lebron needed 30 from AD to beat Jokic - let that sink in - Jordan needed 15.7 on 41% from Pippen to beat Malone and rich man's Nash (stockton - see stats above), while Lebron needed 30 from AD to beat Jokic and 25 to beat Butler - AD led the entire league in playoff PPG for that title run.. Wade led Lebron for the 2011 run and Kyrie basically matched Lebron's ppg for the 2016 run - Lebron always needed sidekicks that could match him, while MJ doubled Pippen's playoff scoring average.

First 2 Finals

Tatum........... 21.8.. 7.3.. 7.1... 49.1 TS
Lebron'......... 19.5.. 7.1.. 6.8... 48.3 TS

No one is saying Tatum is better, but it's more evidence that Lebron wasn't that good well into the 2010's by being unable to perform against Finals teams - this includes getting locked up by the 07' Spurs, 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics and 11' Mavs (epic meltdown in 10' & 11').

2013 was another choke-job but Ray Allen saved him from losing in 6 games with 23 on 43% stats...

In 2009, Lebron lost to an injured, 1-star team as -700 favorite.. He lost by becoming a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time and also having the goat defensive choke by deciding to guard Courtney Lee instead of his own position that was controlling the action (Hedo).. He was a massive bed-wetter in clutch time by losing three 4th quarter leads - he also had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of the critical Game 4, which swung the series.
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Cool sample size, bro.

Career Regular Season:

Kobe
25.0
5.2
4.7
.550 TS%

LeBron
27.1
7.5
7.4
.589 TS%

Career Playoffs:

Kobe
25.6
5.1
4.7
.541

LeBron
28.4
9.0
7.2
.584

You make this too easy.

Career FInals:

Kobe
25.3
5.7
5.1
.412 FG%
.314 3P%

LeBron
28.4
10.2
7.8
.484
.352

Career per 100 possessions (regular season):

Kobe
35.8
7.5
6.7

LeBron
36.7
10.1
10.0

Career per 100 possessions (playoffs):

Kobe
34.7
6.9
6.4

LeBron
36.7
11.6
9.3