Call or raise with the nuts on the turn?

Call or raise with the nuts on the turn?

Hands are 1/2 NL. Playing fairly cautiously, expecting to get paid off when I have good hands as here.

H1, straddle to 4 (a couple of people are straddling) UTG+1 and HJ limp, I raise to 20 on the BTN with JJ, limpers call, straddle and blinds fold. Flop comes J62 and is checked around. Turn is a 2, putting a 2-flush for J622, UTG + 1 bets 40, HJ calls. I am effective stack with 240 left. Should I raise or call?

H2, 5 limpers, including SB, I check with AsTs. Would raise AJs and much lighter from BTN. Flop is QsJs3d. Checked around. Have strong combo draw, but OOP multiway. Would have built the pot better if I had bet preflop or flop. Turn is 7s for QsJs3d7s. SB leads out 6-way for 15. Call or raise?

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18 June 2024 at 04:42 AM
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14 Replies



I’m just calling in both spots, saving my raise for the River. In 1 you block the board so hard that you want to keep their bluffs in, while in 2 it’s going to be very hard to make money, and the best way is to hope other people make bad calls.

(In Hand 2 I think we might be more inclined to raise when we turn the nuts with wheel aces, rather than broadways. The AQJT of spades are all accounted for when you have ATss, so it’s harder for the field to continue vs a raise. It’s a minor consideration—in this exact setup I would just be calling with As2s too—but something to keep in mind as a general principle moving forward.)


I’m just calling in both spots.

I def raise pre in second hand though. (You’d still be in this spot though if you had, say, A6ss).


In both hands call is fine but raise sometimes.
More likely to raise hand 2 where the pot is small and your OOP. The small pot means you need somebody to have an exceptional hand to play for a bit pot and on this board if they don't your not likely to make more money. Your looking for somebody with a king high flush or somebody with two pair/set. The king high flush is unlikely to push but might call a shove and the two pair/set might call big turn bets but could give up river if they don't boat up.
In hand 1 you have the advantage of position so you can call turn and see if either opponent wants to bet river first. In hand 1 because you raised preflop you should bet flop here sometimes. With top set checking sometimes is fine but you should bet to balance your c-bets with air. In some ways your representing a weaker hand by betting, aware opponents will know that preflop raiser not betting flop and then calling turn on a dry board will be traps fairly often.


im betting flop always in hand one, although I'm ok with just calling the turn bet. and hand 2 clear just call with so many players behind.


H1: Flop you can bet small or check, note that you mostly win a small pot here because you have the board crushed. You need like 55 to be called or 76/A2.
On the turn you have the 2nd nuts. This is significant because the only real hands that would be happy to put money in on the flop if you bet are 66/22, now you only have 66.
There's some chance a V has A2, which just improved, on the other side flush draws are drawing dead and importantly will not put any money in on the river if they miss. Probably better to raise something, but calling can't be too bad.

H2 turn: would mostly call without reads, although you have to be a bit careful of pairing rivers because people will make really bad overcalls with two pair. You mostly want the river to brick and V decide to bet big with a flush, or bluff.


H1, my first impulse was to bet, but I looked at how dry the board was and how much I blocked top pair, and decided this was a correct spot to slow play. On the turn, I figured I could bet or raise the river in position. Betting the river when checked to would look much weaker than raising the turn after checking behind the flop as the preflop raiser. The 2 gave me 2nd nuts, but only one combination, and now I beat any straight or flush on the river. I was hoping for any overcard.

The river was an offsuit 4, for J6224. Both villains checked, I bet 75, UTG+1 folds, HJ calls and mucked when I showed.

H2, I called and UTG called the turn. I think I should have raised the turn. Too much risk the board will pair or a spade will kill action. If a spade hit, I sort of block anything. It would be best if someone had the Ks, but the next possibility if 9s. The river was 3c for QsJs3d7s3c. SB bet 15 again. Should I call or raise/fold?


by deuceblocker k

The river was 3c for QsJs3d7s3c. SB bet 15 again. Should I call or raise/fold?

Raise AINEC


by deuceblocker k

H1, my first impulse was to bet, but I looked at how dry the board was and how much I blocked top pair, and decided this was a correct spot to slow play. On the turn, I figured I could bet or raise the river in position. Betting the river when checked to would look much weaker than raising the turn after checking behind the flop as the preflop raiser. The 2 gave me 2nd nuts, but only one combination, and now I beat any straight or flush on the river. I was hoping for any overcard.

The river was

On hand 1, check on flop is fine, turn call is fine, but I shove river. You will get called less, but you will make more money.

Hand 2, check or flop lead is fine. Do note that even though you are OOP, you are not concerned about a raise, because it's an easy call for you.


by OvertlySexual k

On hand 1, check on flop is fine, turn call is fine, but I shove river. You will get called less, but you will make more money.

Absolutely this, and I'm not even sure that you will get called less.


H1

At low stakes I think we can just value bet the flop, for a small size. Opponents will call with all sorts of 1P and Broadway combos.

AP, I'd like to raise turn after we check back flop, and +1 bets the board pairing bottom card, which also brings in the BDFD. Our hand is so under-repped that we should get looked up light.

The stack depth is awkward, but if our opponents aren't paying attention to it, we could raise 3x, to $120, setting up a less than 1/2 pot river jam. Otherwise, I might make it $100, and pray it doesn't look too nutted.

That said, I don't hate flat calling. The pot will be $180-ish going to the river, and we'll have $200 left. Unless it gets checked to us, we shouldn't have trouble getting the rest in. It'll just suck if the FD bricks and it gets checked to us.

H2

I think I'd like leading out on the flop with our specific hand on this board, multi-way in a limped pot, at these stakes. We have so much equity that we shouldn't worry about getting raised. No one can rep QQ, probably not JJ or even QJs. But we could have a lot of QJo and 33 in our range as the BB, as well as all the Q3/J3 combos.

As played, we'll look strong no matter what we do on the turn. But if V thinks we'd have raised pre or bet flop with AXss, we can get value by raising right here. It might look like we flopped 2P or a set and we were hoping to check raise but didn't get the chance.

Take all the above with a grain of salt, understanding that I lean aggro, and don't typically slow play my good draws or thick value at low stakes.


I have been experimenting with playing cautious and conservative and it seems to be working. I don't like playing aggro at low stakes live, but prefer picking bluffing opportunities. Playing aggro works better in tournaments when people are playing scared than here when they don't want to fold.

H1, I rarely slow play, but JJ or J62,r seemed perfect for it. When the turn paired deuces, I didn't think I needed to raise for protection, since I beat any flush or straight on the river, and no one should have a higher pp. When the river got checked, I still thought I had a lock on the board and a deuce would have bet river or raised turn. I didn't see what anyone could have but maybe something like 88 or A6s. I started to bet 100, but decided on 75.

H2, I kind of played in passively on every street, and maybe misplayed every street.


My sense of low stakes player psychology is that most bad players fear being bluffed off a marginal hand more than they fear paying off a value bet from a better hand. Because they vpip so wide, they end up in that situation a lot, then tell themselves it was just a bad beat.

It's like comparing the fear of being robbed to the fear of losing a fair competition. The former is going to sting more than the latter.

This is why I prefer not to slow play big hands at low stakes, especially well-disguised hands. Opponents will pay off more than most of us realize.

Like, when we flop top set with JJ, a flop c-bet could get called by KQ and AX way more often than we'd think.


by docvail k

My sense of low stakes player psychology is that most bad players fear being bluffed off a marginal hand more than they fear paying off a value bet from a better hand. Because they vpip so wide, they end up in that situation a lot, then tell themselves it was just a bad beat.

This is possible, and there is probably some truth to it ... but I think a lot of it is mostly simple math due to preflop ranges.
If you see a flop with a 45% range instead of a 15% range, then when facing a bet if the 15% range should fold 33% of the time the 45% range would need to fold 78% of the time to get to the turn with the same range. But people generally don't do that, so they'll only fold say 50% and then the same problem moves to the turn where it's a 10% vs. 22% range.

Like people aren't doing MDF math but with a bunch of experience they'll be somewhat aware of what the other players are doing and how often they are doing it. This is also why you'll occasionally see people say things like "you are always betting at the flop, you can't always have it" because they are roughly aware that their 45% range can only bet say 10% of the time (top 5%) but here you are betting 3x as often (still top 5%).


by docvail k

Like, when we flop top set with JJ, a flop c-bet could get called by KQ and AX way more often than we'd think.

FWIW, I think we should bet flop a lot in H1. Certainly more than we bet QJ, say. xbing top set is like "baby's first slowplay" though, so I let people have it.

I think flatting turn is much better than raising though.

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