Gray-haired poker TRs: Living the WSOP dream

The other thing I'd throw in there is a shorter trip, or more days off. Avoid the burnout.

Please return next year. Your TR was the best thing I've ever read on 2+2. It was entertaining, inspirational, and educational (you're a better player than me as I can barely spell GTO). Consider playing the Seniors and/or Super Seniors if you want to be +EV. The Seniors is especially fun, while the Super Seniors is a softer field but I've heard it can be a bit slow (nevertheless it's currently my #2 reason for looking forward to turning 60 in a couple years; #1 is that it beats the alternative).

When I lucked into my first cash (on my first try) three years ago and thus got listed on WSOP.com and the Hendon database, I likened it to Steve Martin in "The Jerk" celebrating being in the phone book: "Page 73 - Johnson, Navin R.! I'm somebody now! Millions of people look at this book every day! This is the kind of spontaneous publicity - your name in print - that makes people. I'm in print! Things are going to start happening to me now."

This.
While I rarely play tournaments if I somehow found myself heads up with say Shaun Deeb I'm turning it into a bingo variance fest. The more of a dog you are the more variance is your friend.

I'd also say don't worry about the "cache" of the wsop. It's all marketing. I understand why a recreational player would want to chase a bracelet but you also need to play events you ejoy. you already got your wsop cash. Next year see what events appeal to you in Vegas. If you like freezeouts play wsop freeze outs and then the other days see what else is running in town.

What you don't want to do is nurse a stack all day and then finally flip. It's too hard to go deep this way. You want to spin it up early so you can bully people and withstand some hits later on.

to answer your question about how most of these "pros" make money-

There are some absolute crushers out there no doubt.
But the vast majority of these pros are basically perpetually broke and delusional at best. I actually meant to say that when you would mention there being several pros at a lot of your tables.
They may be more studied than you- but it doesn't mean they've made a good living from poker.

How many of these people actually enter a 1500 event and say my ev for this tournament is 500 dollars? basically none. they're all hoping to spin 1500 into a big prize.

And when you have 500-1000 tournament grinders playing a bunch of events a few will randomly run hot and win a bunch of money. Then the rest of them all know they're as good as those few and keep chasing the dream bc maybe next year they get chosen.

There are a lot of people with a lot of cashes on hendon selling for 1ks at 1.3 markup or maybe 1.5 to the main event.

Do the math if someone has a 30 percent ROI or even a 50 percent ROI where is the money coming from long term? Sure they might get lucky and bink. But when you do the math and realize how many hours they play per event on average, what they're actual hourly is in these events, subtract their expensese you see why after years of griding they're still selling pieces for small events. Bc they're broke.

And of course when someone actually does basically hit the lotto for a huge score so many of them piss the money away, especially in Vegas.

Reading your posts, I immediately got the sense you were hindered by a need to "play well". You actually described it better than I did, obv we all aim to play well, but if you're more concerned about not looking bad in a TR/worrying about what other people are going to "think about you" then yeah, you're hurting yourself. My poker game really got good once I stopped caring about what other people thought. Before, I was good, I knew all the mechanics, hand standards, odds etc like the back of my hand. Once I stopped giving a sht my game in my own humble opinion became outstanding. You always know where they're at. They never know where you're at. They know you might lose but if you don't they're DEFINITELY LOSING. Etc etc.

I played with Greg Raymer back in the day (cash) right before he won in 2004. I think I played well but I know I was adjusting my game to him. I know in the back of my mind I didn't want him to think a fellow 2+2 er wasn't that good. What I should have been thinking is "he probably doesn't know who I am one way or the other" and made him adjust to my game, not vice versa.

The older I get, the more "meh F it" has come to the rescue for me, in many facets of life.

Oh and if you're just that not into shows... ok. But you're weird 😀

Mrs. rppoker agrees with you.

You should see me at plays. Ten times worse than shows for me. I find plays to be excuciatingly and hideously painful to sit through.

rp,

just to clarify that I am in the process of changing my mindset too. This is a relatively new realisation for me as well. And it’s definitely harder for nits to adjust more aggro than it is for aggrotards to start Notting it up more. It’s a challenge. It I do think it’s right

Surely you saw the ads on all the cabs around town.

“What’s our target demographic for people who actually sit through theatrical plays or shows?”

“I know!”

…That’s how you get “Menopause: The MUSICAL!” here in Vegas

Unless you really enjoy the studying a lot I'd agree with Leon. You're not trying to be a pro, you're playing for the experience of it. Sure do some studying but don't let it consume your life. Definitely swing for the fences to give yourself a chance to go deeper next year. Learn from some mistakes you had this year. You paid for the fun of the experience but you also paid for some lessons while playing so take advantage of them.

Now if you bust on level 3 a bunch of times and you're going to putter around vegas miserable the rest of the day then maybe swinging for the fences isn't the right idea. That's really for you to decide.

As for the bolded ,put it this way- from a purely monetary aspect- if you enter say 10,000 dollars worth of events next year how much extra ev are you gaining from studying a ton over the next 11 months? If you can up your ROI 20 percent that's 2,000 dollars. Obviously as a money making endeavor that's not worth your time. Even at an hour a night that's 7 bucks an hour. Now if you enjoy studying a ton then the money doesn't matter, you're doing it because you like it which is totally different. If you enjoy studying maybe once or twice a week and you want to ramp it up for a month or so leading into the 2025 wsop then do that.

It sounds like overall you had a good trip and it was worth the money you spent for it. You have a better idea of what you liked and what you didn't and can adjust for 2025.

As for plays and shows- I'm not a huge fan either, especially plays.
I've had several girlfriends over the years try and drag me to a play and I told a few of them "Lincoln went to a play and look how that worked out for him". Maybe not the smartest thing to say in the moment but definitely what I thought of going.

Yea who cares what someone else at the table thinks of your play. Some people think i'm really good, some thing i'm ok some thing I'm terrible. Frankly I prefer people I play with to think i'm a drunken idiot anyway than actually think I'm good. In the end my results will be my results. I won't have more money bc someone thinks I'm good and I won't have less bc someone thinks I'm bad.

If by some miracle I ever go deep in the main event I'm sure at some point I'd make a horrific blunder. Hopefully the deck would bail me out. And i'm sure the twitter warriors would point out how stupid I am bc they can regurgitate what a machine spits out and I didn't spend the last 5 years locked in my basement running sims. They'll probably be right about my play and I won't give a single ****.

Daniel Negreanu just won the $50,000 Poker Players Championship to win his seventh WSOP bracelet.

I know he is a lightening rod for criticism at times. I'm not qualified to speak about how well he does or doesn't play in recent times. I'm not interested in debating his at times heavy losses firing massive buy-in events and probably too much volume in recent years.

Here is what I can discuss. During my 12 days at this year's WSOP I witnessed at least 5-6 different instances where fans went up to him and requested a photo in situations in which I think most famous poker pros probably would have been annoyed/angered by the request. Daniel took the picture every time, and he did it with a smile on his face and playful banter every time. Once it was when he was at a table deep into a tournament when he wasn't in the hand. Another time it was while he was speaking into his phone creating content for his much watched WSOP Vlog. A couple of times was when he was in a big hurry to get somewhere on break, and he passed me walking in the opposite direction as his fans chased him down. Etc., etc.

In none of these cases was there a TV camera on him. Obviously he had no idea I was watching. It's not like I spent very much time watching him (it was a few minutes by design a couple of times when I had time to kill, and it was random, accidental, unplanned times otherwise). It's a small sample size, but it seems obvious to me that he is generous with his time for his fans in what most players would find to be stressful, leave-me-alone moments. He may not be perfect, he may not play perfect, he may do things at times that can be criticized, but I also think there is a reason why so many casual poker fans like him so much and why he gets the sponsorships that he does.

He’s definitely a good ambassador. He should be because ultimately that’s his job, but he’s good at it and that’s why he’s the #1 guy. No one else is anywhere close in gen pop. Only Hellmuth for name recognition and he’s a comedy act

This win will go a huge way to building his wealth the next 5 years

I've seen Daniel interact with fans in the past and can second that he's a class act off camera.

The top two most popular poker players on Hendon Mob are Negreanu and Ivey:

https://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking...

Two absolute legends with polar opposite public personas.

Daniel is the people's champion. Big personality. Wears his heart on his sleeve.

Phil is the poker player's poker player. Just shows up and stoically crushes in any game or format. A machine (though low-key super funny when he wants to be).

Glad to hear you are heavily leaning toward returning next year. This trip report has truly been one of the best things on 2+2 and your dedication to writing it from leadup to after-action is very much appreciated. I'm glad to hear it's been as much fun to write as it has been to consume.

I agree with the earlier comments about your schedule: I think your experience would have been even better had you been there this week, when there are four separate $400-$600 bracelet events, including three with 40-minute levels. I also think your late-reg hatred would have subsided a bit: I get the feeling that a lot of pros did the max late reg thing especially in the mystery millions to try to spin up a stack and the chance for a $1 million bounty (as opposed to, say, the Colossus).

On the poker playing, as a fellow nit always trying to embrace more aggression, it's a challenging proposition sometimes, especially in live tournaments when you don't get to play them very often. But I also think the suggestions Leon is making about playing more carefree will also improve your game by being more willing to ramp up that aggression factor, even if it leads to some early bust-outs.

One more off-season suggestion: Consider throwing a couple hundred bucks on an online site. Playing $11 or $22 tournaments online is going to give you similar levels of competition to a $300-$500 live tournament, and it will give you reps for playing the bubble, playing a short stack, playing the final 2-3 tables, getting to 4-bet jam A5s, etc. I would suggest Global Poker, which doesn't require any use of crypto (and has less late reg than ACR or Ignition), but if you are in living in Michigan (which I think is the case), it's not allowed there. However, WSOP is up and running there, so you do have options.

I completely agree. Next year I am going to look much closer at this when deciding on my WSOP trip dates. The window of time you mentioned sounds great, but it falls right smack dab in the middle of a marriage celebration no fly zone for Mrs. rppoker and me.

However, I could have done the following this summer:

Event 17, $800 deepstack (also fire a second bullet if knocked out)
Event 20, $300 Gladiator (4 day 1s in which I would also fire a second bullet each day via rebuy/late reg)
Event 28, $1,500 freezeout
Event 36, $800 deepstack (just one bullet, unless I didn't need to fire some second bullets in earlier events)

That is a maximum of 12 bullets at the exact same cost as the seven bullets I fired in actuality. This would allow me to be more aggressive and not be so married to the experience (i.e. not wanting to get knocked out too early if more aggression goes awry). I would get two deepstacks and one freezeout, which I like. Plus, potentially eight bullets in the Gladiator, which is a lot of play.

I am 100% going to try to do this in 2025 if the schedule cooperates.

There was also a possibility of doing this at the very end of the 2024 WSOP when their are a bunch of $400-$800 tournaments, but my concern is that this late in the WSOP it will be much more poker pro heavy since I think that recs are more likely to fire earlier in the Series.

There is merit to your suggestion, but I am not going to go that route.

It would be really difficult to carve out the time necessary for online poker tournaments.

If I were to get hooked on online tourneys (which I would), I think that would get in the way of spending time with Mrs. rppoker. Plus my kids and my mom are always over at the house needing my help on one thing or another plus wanting to hang out. Then there's my dog Astro who needs play time and walks and bathroom time that would come up while I would be playing. Plus, I have a business to run.

There's just not enough hours in the day for me to be able to play in online tourneys. When I am at the WSOP there are no family/business obligations for the most part for me to have to deal with. Everyone tries to let me have my time to myself at the WSOP (except for a nightly call home to Mrs. rppoker).

I'd rather give my time generously to my family and my business, and be a total long shot at the WSOP. Trying to put my 10,000 hours of poker learning/playing to give me a better shot at WSOP glory strikes me as -ev when it comes to my family and my business. I'm OK with playing in the WSOP for the love of the game in which I don't have a great shot at glory.

I'd suggest looking at the schedule next time for the (super) Seniors event. From my limited experience and your writing, I think you'd be competitive in that field. I think it fits your "fun" needs well, as well.

At least, I assume from the title you qualify for those events.

I would be eligible, although I would be considered a young pup in that SuperSeniors tournament.

Tidbits I find interesting from the WSOP to date

Pedro Rodriguez has two second-place finishes so far at this year’s WSOP. One was for $451,299 and the other earned him $1,111,897. From a financial standpoint he has had a phenomenal WSOP. But to come so close to winning a bracelet not once but twice seems like it would also be incredibly frustrating. We should all experience such frustrations, but still …

In a similar situation is Jeremy Ausmus who has already made five final tables in this year’s WSOP, finishing in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th. Financially he earned $1,892,260, $209,358, $109,071, $200,896, and $754,052 for those finishes. Serious cash. To quote the movie White Men Can’t Jump, “We goin’ Sizzler.” And yet from a bracelet perspective, I suspect pure frustration for a poker killer seeking his seventh bracelet. Even without earning a bracelet he might win Player of the Year anyways, which would ease the pain.

The flip side of this is Scott Seiver who won bracelets at both of his final tables this year. To quote the movie Glengarry Glen Ross, “Coffee is for closers.” In the same category is Santhosh Suvarna who has a mere seven WSOP cashes on his resume, but he has won two bracelets.

If Daniel Negreanu just stayed away from the Super High Roller tourneys just imagine how profitable the 2024 WSOP would be for him. That or he should get lessons from Chris Hunichen who earned $2,397,312 for third place in the $250,000 High Roller, and another $2,838,389 for his first-place finish in the $100,000 High Roller. Forget Sizzler, we goin’ Joel Robuchon.

For crushers, it’s all about the money up top. Bryce Yockey has eight non-Final Table cashes so far this WSOP earning him $1,154, $5,218, $6,024, $2,696, $505, $3,002, $2,177, and $3,007. Not bad, but for the big boys this is relative crumbs. However, at his two Final Tables he earned $606,654 (first place) and $768,467 (second place).

Joseph Couden has made five final tables so far, but he hasn’t been able to crack the top four in any of them. His payouts for his Final Tables have been $11,038, $27,709, $18,284, $93,758, and $32,537. That’s very nice money, but nowhere near what I would have expected for making five Final Tables.

Chance Kornuth has scored big in High Roller tourneys with cashes of $932,725, $1,351,000, $50,637 and $50,936. What is surprising to me is he has minor cashes in a couple of low buy-in tourneys such as the $1,000 Mystery Millions (cash of $1,489), $600 online Deepstack (cash of $1,437). I am surprised he can stay awake in such low buy-in events when he is used to playing for much, much, much higher stakes.

Viktor Blom has finishes of 3rd, 3rd and 4th at this year’s WSOP so far. What is surprising to me is that, given his level of fame, he only has 15 career cashes at the WSOP.

The player I had not heard of before that I played against this WSOP whose game really impressed me is Arthur Morris. He was one of those tricky players who minted a ton of chips while rarely having to turn over his cards at showdown. He won a ton of hands when I suspect he did not have “it,” and he got a ton of action when he did have “it.” Since playing against him, I have been watching for him on WSOP.com chip stacks coverage, and he seems to consistently build up very healthy chip stacks early in tourneys. He has 11 cashes so far in this WSOP, but hasn’t had a breakthrough Final Table run this year to date. He seems like he plays a wide range of different games. In the 2023 WSOP he had a second-place finish in the $10,000 Pot-Limit Omaha Championship for $809,167. He is nearing $2,000,000 in lifetime WSOP earnings. So he is accomplished, but I think the best is yet to come for him. My one prediction in this post is that I think he will be a player that has a big breakthrough and becomes very well-known during the next 2-3 years. He also has a very nice table demeanor and personality which I think would be well-received if he were to get TV time.

Another player I faced in two different tournaments at this year’s WSOP is Ben Yu. He has had an unusual WSOP by his lofty standards. He seems to cash constantly. He already has a whopping 15 cashes in this year’s WSOP, but his biggest cash has “only” been for $20,552. Twelve of his cashes have been for less than $10,000. For the average human being this would be a phenomenal WSOP, but given that he has previously won four bracelets and almost $6,000,000 at the WSOP, I suspect he feels like this has been a quiet WSOP for him. I say that as a compliment. Imagine having 15 cashes already and feeling like it’s just a solid WSOP. That is elite status.

Ausmus currently 3/6 on the 10k 2-7 final table. Seiver 4/6

Both are having remarkable WSOPs. This is one of the best Player of the Year races I can remember. Instead of contending for the WSOP POY because of 20+ small to medium cashes and maybe a couple of final tables but no wins, we are seeing a POY race where it is going to take either 2-3 bracelets or a half dozen final tables to even contend.

For those interested, people I played against in my trip report who are making runs at the moment:

Erik Lindgren is currently in 18th place in the $25,000 High Roller Pot-Limit Omaha tourney. (Editor's note: He is now 10th in chips with 23 players left).

Ben Yu is currently in 29th place in the $10,000 Seven Card Stud Hi-Lo 8 or Better Championship. Arthur Morris (KingArthur is how I identified him) is in 49th. Still a long way to go until the money.

I did not mention her in my 2019 WSOP trip report section of this thread, but there was a dealer who dealt at my tables multiple times. The first time was when I was at a table she dealt at, and then my table broke and eventually she ended up dealing at my new table. I think she also dealt to me in another tournament a couple days later.

She was far and away the best dealer I encountered. She kept the cards moving quickly, acted decisively, called out the action when needed, had control of the table and did so in a friendly, pleasing but nonintrusive manner. She was so impressive that I sought out a floor person on a break and complimented her to him. Obviously they must have received a lot of compliments about her because she was named the 2019 WSOP dealer of the year.

She has now transitioned to poker player. She has half-a-dozen cashes already in this year's WSOP (including online events). Her high water marks this summer have been in 2-7 lowball events in which she finished 4th and 65th. Her other four cashes have been in No Limit Hold'em. In the 2023 WSOP Main Event she finished in 642nd place.

She currently is 25th in chips in the $1,000 MINI Main Event, although it is only Level 13.

Her name is Heather Alcorn.

If you want to read about her, here is a 2023 article on her.

https://www.worldpokertour.com/news/2019...