Ideal Sizing For Flop C/R Deep Multiway?

You might be deep stacked in terms of big blinds or the table max, but the SPR is 5, and you can easily get all-in on the turn whatever c/r size you use. Based on your assumptions, $175-200 seems like the ideal size.

What are you trying to accomplish?

Are you trying to keep both in, while adding money to a pot while you are likely ahead? Click it back

Do you want to protect your hand and get both to fold? Shove

Want to keep one and lose the other? X/r raise to 225, imo (might lose them both though)

Could also call and play the turn, not gonna be super hard to get stacks in here either way, might have to lead the turn, though.

I would raise/call to like 275/325. If the button folds aces, so be it, a quarter of the deck will likely kill any further action anyway but that's not a flop I'm willing to slow play multiway when we're round 300 bb's deep.

If we call, the pot would be 325 and we’d have 405 behind. Can we just jam??

Spr is barely over 1 after flop action just ship it like you would a big draw.

Just jam. If a draw wants to call you, make them pay. Button seems like AQ or an overpair. If you're losing here, by the time you 3 bet, you're unlikely to get out of the hand. Worst case, you take down 100+ bb.

Put me in the "click it back" camp; the pot is big enough that if we are called in even one spot we will be able to get it in on the turn

If I'm doing the math right, the pot's like $250 coming back to us, and we've got around $400 left? I think I probably just jam, and hope it looks like we're on a draw. A min-click or any size that isn't all-in is going to look pretty nutted, because we'll almost never fold after that.

Please don't be annoyed at me.

1) I agree we should be raising pre.

2) LJ didn't raise pre. The BTN did. LJ limp-called the BTN raise. My guess would be LJ might have check-called with Qx, a diamond draw, or some other piece of the board, possibly an OESD, or just 7x / 6x. If he's loose-passive and sticky post, he might be floating with some weird AX or KX trash, hoping to make a better TP.

3) I'm not sure how deep we need to be here to push us one way or the other on our flop decision. I guess if we were much deeper, we obviously wouldn't jam, but we'd definitely be raising, so I think the only question is whether we call or raise, and if we raise, how much.

I prefer to jam because of how wet the board is. Any diamond brings in the FDFD. Any 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 or T could complete a straight. A 7 or 6 could give us trips or a boat. Even an A or K could kill the action if our V's have Qx, or JJ. That's 29 cards, more than half the deck.

Just over-calling here looks pretty strong. A min-check-raise that leaves us around $200 behind looks insanely strong. Whereas jamming could look like we're on a draw. If we're never getting away from our hand, we might as well get the money in now, before our opponents see the turn and start to re-think their hands.

If we just flat call, what's our plan for the turn? Are we going to check-call a scare card, or try to check-jam a brick? What if BTN checks back, as he's likely to do? Are we going to donk? If so, what cards are we going to donk? Other than an offsuit 2, what cards are we hoping to see that will allow us to jam and expect to get called?

Or was the plan to just check-call turn, and donk lead river, or check-call the whole way? There again, what runouts are we hoping for?

I like Jam here, especially if we think it looks drawy, with the hope that we get called off by say KQ.

Raise pre, all in now you hate so many turn cards

I get that, just saying, if he turbo bets any time he has something, that doesnt seem passive, and if he bets whenever he has something hed be betting the Qx or diamond draw right? Or do you think hes checking his whole range to the PFR? Just dont really understand the read.

Im just saying you arent deep, 100 bb is generally considered “standard” stack sizes. I get that youre deep for 1/2, but the straddle puts you back at standard sizes, and then the 5x raise and MW action gives you a very small SPR otf.

I mean if the flush hits the turn, you gotta reevaluate. Ifyou see significant action, you save yourself money if anything, because the flush draws arent folding to a flop jam anyway, and you can probably stack them on an airballed turn anyway. Most likely same thing with OESD, except if they hit they will still stack you. Gutshots fold, but is folding out 4 outs that you have redraws against that exciting?

IMO Players way way way overplay their big hands on wet boards to charge the draws. They already got charged $75, getting drawn out on sometimes is OK. You lose too much EV folding out their medium strength hands by shipping IMO, all to get a gutshot to fold? One of the tenants i try and base my poker on is the goal of poker isnt to make your decisions easier. Sometimes you end up in a tough spot by playing perfectly and thats ok.

As far as min raising, i dont personally minraise, just not my style, so I dont have enough experience to say whether its a good or bad move, which is why i said it was fine. My understanding is that its basically exploiting the fact that nobody ever wants to fold to such a small sizing even when they know they are beat, and also it gives them the opportunity to just say **** it and push the rest of their stack in. But youd have to hear from someone who knows more about this move.

The other thing, just to add on, is I find that players check call flop and check raise turn for value sorta too often,and i generally advocate for fast playing at low stakes, but I think this is the right spot to do the check call check raise line. we have a very tight player betting, so he is strong and also can get scared away due to MUBS, and we have a gunslinger calling who might fire out on the turn, i just dont see how one of those two doesnt bet the turn and pot commit themselves with whatever theyve got.

id CR small but big enough where you have less than pot on the turn to shove. i think your hand is face up this way but its 1/3, nobody is folding AQ or an overpair to this action. i mean, would you fold an overpair to a small flop raise? even a nit would at least call the flop, and if the turn bricks have a very hard time folding.

put yourself in villain's shoes. lets say you had TPTK or an overpair. if you fold to the flop CR, now everyone knows you fold easy (or you think everyone else knows). so now either you now have a target on your back, or you think you do. i.e., you cannot fold an overpair to this bet.

also as an aside, i think villain is making a big mistake betting flop this size into two people. with this SPR i think the play is to bet small or check. and given that most of the PFR button range misses this flop checking might be the correct play almost always here.

This may be an instance of a read being right, but not really all that relevant.

Or it may be that what you or I think of as "having something" differs from what OP thinks, or what OP thinks that V thinks. Or what V actually thinks.

Maybe OP's read is wrong, or V likes to fast-play his weak TP's and slow-play his big combo-draws. Or maybe V just checks to the PFR on the flop with everything, preferring to wait until the turn to make his move.

Or maybe he just has AK, and is hoping to make a better TP. But we're three-ways here, so there's another opponent to think about - the BTN. The LJ we're talking about isn't even the main V here.

I'm not sure why we'd need to get wrapped around the axel trying to figure out what LJ has or what he's doing based on OP's read, when the BTN is the one driving the betting. What's he got? What's he doing?

Understood. I'm just not sure what the point is.

If we're short, not deep, all the more reason to jam, not flat call. It would be a disaster to flat call and get pot-stuck, unable to fold, then see a bad run-out, which most run-outs are going to be.

I'd rather jam flop, and let the poker gods decide our fates, than flat call, and have the poker gods decide to take a giant dump on me for not jamming when I had way the best of it.

Mostly agreed, as you make a number of salient points.

My take on this situation is that we've got a PFR who is c-betting flop for 3/4 pot, multi-way, on a wet board. Not 1/3 pot. Not 1/2 pot. Not even 2/3 pot. He c-bet 3/4 pot. Obviously, the BTN has a hand that wants to charge the draws.

The LJ flat called, which makes me think he likely has a draw. We don't have a draw, we've got a set. Why not jam, when the BTN is likely to call, believing we're on a draw, and not worry about what the LJ does? The BTN has us covered, not the LJ.

Let's say the LJ is on a draw - what draw combos is he likely to have here, when he limp-called pre, and is just check-calling flop? Some wack-a$$ middling flush draw seems more likely than a draw to the nuts. In other words - it's a draw he can fold, unless he simply can't find a fold for any flush draw here. And if that's the case - let's get his money now, not wait until a "safe" turn, when he may not feel as enthusiastic about his hand.

Do we really want to let him draw to a flush getting >4:1 ($75 to call flop, when the pot will be $328 if we over-call), or do we want to force him to decide if he wants to play for stacks now?

The goal of poker may not be to make our decisions easier, but we sure as $hlt don't want to make our opponents' decisions easier. Eff that. Let's make him miserable, and while we're at it, let's ruin the BTN's day, too. Eff both of them.

I don't want to flat call, and either fold turn or river, or accept that we'll have to take a defensive line and play our hand as a bluff-catcher on a $hltty runout, which is going to happen more than 50% of the time.

I'd rather jam, and hope one or both call, and that the run-out is bricktastic. I'll feel better going broke after getting my money in good than I will relinquishing my hand after playing it poorly.

At these stack depths, multi-way, when we're in the middle, we probably won't get the opportunity to check-raise turn. If we over-call the BTN's 3/4 pot c-bet, he's not going to fire the turn with worse than middle set, unless he thinks the LJ and OP are both morons chasing draws, which seems unlikely if BTN is never getting out of line.

From the OP: "Button is 50-something solid/tight reg, haven't seen him get out of line at all over a few different sessions."

Alternatively, if OP's read on the LJ is right, we might see him donk turn more than half the time. Or (LOL!), he may go for a check-raise.

So, while we're checking turn, planning to check-raise, the BTN just checks back. Or the BTN bets, and the LJ check-raises, and we'll...fold? I'm guessing the LJ isn't going to be x/r'ing on a total brick, not that there are many total bricks. I'm guessing the x/r is going to come on a draw-completing card.

Nothing to worry about, though. It's only 29 cards we need to fade on the turn.

Min click, small raise and shove all seem reasonable. Just want to make sure all the chips get in the middle. You’re ahead, act accordingly.

PSB is 400 so just rip it in.

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