U.S. Supreme Court Ruling: ATHEISM IS RELIGION
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Atheism is Religion according to the 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins case that was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court--the highest court in the land--where court rulings become national law. As recently as 2005, the Wisconsin Federal Court ruling on the matter of Kaufman v. McCaughtry again ruled that Atheism is Religion. In spite of the many court rulings along that line, members of the Religion of Atheism insist they are not religious.
Atheist religionists frequently attempt to take the higher ground by insisting that because of belief in God, Christians and other theists have committed all sorts of human rights violations in the name of "cultish religions." According to the many atheists I have debated at other websites, it is the belief in God that has caused people to commit the various atrocities common to sinful mankind. Remove religion, belief in God, and belief in the Bible--the atheists frequently argue--and the world will be a better place. This latter conclusion is flawed for the following reasons:
1. Atheism is itself a religion.
2. Atheists have committed human rights violations en masse throughout history and have killed far more people than have those claiming to be theists. For instance, Joseph Stalin--the atheist--ordered the deaths of between 40 million to 62 million of his own Russian people (20 million of whom were everyday Soviet civilians). Compare that to the 9 million or so killed by Adolph Hitler, the Roman Catholic who merely claimed he was a Christian. The point being, anybody can claim they are a theist.
In reality, the problem is not the Bible or God. The problem is false religions that have failed to teach the masses Biblical truths. Blaming God for the crimes of people whose behaviors he himself rejects is an attempt at passing the buck.
"See! This only I have found, that the true God made mankind upright, but THEY THEMSELVES have sought out many plans." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)
DISCUSSION POINTS:
1. Considering that atheists have themselves committed human rights violations under the banner of non-belief in a supernatural God or gods, why can one argue that "belief in god" is not the actual reason behind crimes against humanity?
2. Atheists routinely argue they do not belong to a religion. According to them, non-belief in God is proof positive that they are not religious. The U.S. Supreme Court and other U.S. courts say otherwise. What arguments can you present to effectively dispute the court rulings?
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
lol explain that to me ?
I don’t see the correlation at all .
Secularism do not reject the existent of god ?
Before calling others or their arguments stupid maybe you should try to think about the ones you give ?
I can just claim I believe in God AND that I don't hold any religious belief while believing in God. And you would reject this and tell me I have to be religious if I believe in God. Why?
My definition of morality is treating others as they want to be treated, and expect them to do the same for me.
What if I want to be raped and beaten all day? Let's say I have a kink for it.
Your definition of morality has to be completely relative if you don't have a higher authority issuing said morality.
I think innately we all evolved to understand that as social animals who need to live and work together to prosper.
Cool story. And I assert God created the universe and He injected our morality innately into our hearts. My claim is actually easier to prove using epistemology and logic. And you don't have a justification for logic without God so it's therefore impossible for you to make an argument using it.
Just because humans have believed in many gods does not make it true or not that there is one supreme God.
If you match atheism up against the Orthodox Christian worldview it smashes it along with every other theology out there.
Andrew Wilson (The Crucible), MadeByJimBob, and Dyer are all Orthodox Christians and also some of the best debaters out there. They dismantle atheists every day. Dillamonkey literally walked off the stage with Wilson before the debate between the two began.
Exactly !
So you agree with me at 99.999% of all the other gods they weren’t real gods !
We actually just disagree with the one you believe in on the thousands previously shrug .
No idea what you mean about matching ?
I’m not pretending anything other that I don’t need an imaginary friend to tell me what’s right or wrong shrug.
I just don’t believe with the evidences we have today that your god is more real then any other that was created before yours .
Actually the greatest enemy of gods is science and its understanding .
Many god died as our comprehension of our world/universe expand.
We’re getting there , slowly but surely .
I can just claim I believe in God AND that I don't hold any religious belief while believing in God. And you would reject this and tell me I have to be religious if I believe in God. Why?
Yes I agree .
There is a word for that .
It’s called agnostic theism or deism .
But I don’t understand what this have to do with what I said to your previous respond .
Cool story. And I assert God created the universe and He injected our morality innately into our hearts. My claim is actually easier to prove using epistemology and logic. And you don't have a justification for logic without God so it's therefore impossible for you to make an argument using it.
FWIW the difference between you and an atheist or science is just the “middleman” called god .
You believe: god came from nothing then created the universe .
We believe : universe comes from nothing by itself .
No...just no. Believing in a universe without a divine creator subsequently entails many corresponding beliefs you must hold to to have that belief. Thus it's most certainly a worldview.
And lmfao, Dyer crushed Dillamonkey.
Nope. It’s possible to say “I don’t know” to other questions like the origin of the universe, while not believing in a god. No entailment necessary.
Or there was never nothing. "Unexplained/unknown" does not equal "nothing." We have close to proof via the conservation of energy principle that there was never nothing. Yet theists rely on the nothingness thing to voila their god into existence.
Cool story. And I assert God created the universe and He injected our morality innately into our hearts. My claim is actually easier to prove using epistemology and logic. And you don't have a justification for logic without God so it's therefore impossible for you to make an argument using it.
Really? Then go ahead and present your proof so the rest of us can evaluate it. AFAIK nobody has ever produced a convincing proof for the existence of ANY deity, let alone one for the particular deity you believe in. Not a proof that meets the typical, rigorous standards used in academic discourse anyway. I have no doubt there are “proofs” that are indeed convincing to those who already are believers, but that’s a low bar, and many of them seem to be question begging arguments that implicitly assume the existence of a deity (I.e. X is impossible without some deity, where X is some feature of the universe that we don’t currently have a good scientific explanation for, or in some instances one where we actually have a perfectly good explanation that believers reject).
Besides, I thought God COULDN’T be proven; that’s why faith is so important to theists.
What if I want to be raped and beaten all day? Let's say I have a kink for it.
Your definition of morality has to be completely relative if you don't have a higher authority issuing said morality.
Your definition of morality is complete relative if you have a deity issuing it. It’s whatever they feel like that day. Murder bad? Make a commandment, unless you want to kill all the first born sons of Egypt, then it’s ok.
And if your fantasy is to get raped and beaten, that’s your choice. My choice is to not rape or beat anyone.
Cool story. And I assert God created the universe and He injected our morality innately into our hearts. My claim is actually easier to prove using epistemology and logic. And you don't have a justification for logic without God so it's therefore impossible for you to make an argument using it.
Cool assertion. Prove it.
FWIW BG, if what you believe in the existence of god and everything that transpose from it as being an “objective truth “ , we wouldn’t even had that discussion .
Just the fact that the need of beliefs and faith are necessary to sustain your viewpoint should tell you something .
One important question hasn't been raised itt as far as I can see: Is atheism tax-deductible?
I'd love to believe there is a loving god who provides me a path to eternal life, but too often the people who try to convert me use obviously misleading or irrational arguments like yours. If these are the best arguments christians have, then I don't have any good evidence or reason to believe.
First, you quote court rulings that concur that atheists have the same rights as christians under our constitution and laws, to misleadingly claim it proves "AThEiSm Is A RElIGion!". Secondly, whether one
DesertCat:
You're giving me credit for court rulings that said Atheism is religion. In Torcaso v. Watkins, there were more than two judges involved because that case went to the U.S. Supreme Court. In the case of James J. KAUFMAN, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. Gary R. McCAUGHTRY, et al., Atheist James J. KAUFMAN was informed in the court transcript that Atheism is Religion. You can read what the court said at post 26 within this thread. I also provide the weblink to the court ruling within post 26.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
Theism: "belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."
A-theism: Not accepting the claim that god exists.
It's as simple as that, and it's not a religion. Atheists just believe theists haven't met their burden of proof. Give me reasonable evidence and I will immediately become a believer.
How you and other atheists wish it were that simple.
Alter2Ego
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
One important question hasn't been raised itt as far as I can see: Is atheism tax-deductible?
Yes, Morphismus, it is. And that, in and of itself, proves that Atheism is Religion.
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
DesertCat:
You're giving me credit for court rulings that said Atheism is religion. In Torcaso v. Watkins, there were more than two judges involved because that case went to the U.S. Supreme Court. In the case of James J. KAUFMAN, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. Gary R. McCAUGHTRY, et al., Atheist James J. KAUFMAN was informed in the court transcript that Atheism is Religion. You can read what the court said at post 26 within this thread. I also provide the weblink to the court ruling within post 26
You should read your own links.
The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment
The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion."
These are court rulings that declare that the rights afforded under the first amendment apply to atheists as well, treating it as equivalent to a religion, not making it one.
That's not a response. The very definition of a-theism is simply not believing a god exists. Someone can be a gnostic atheist certain no god exists, or an agnostic atheist not believing theists have met their burden of proof.
But thats the extent of what it is. An atheist can be a progressive liberal, a conservative, a believer in UFOs as proof of alien intelligence, or even believe we all have spiritual powers. There is no atheist orthodoxy on any other belief or topic other than whether a god or god exists.
Even if I were to join a secular humanistic organisation that held meetings on Sundays where we discussed why we believed no god exists, and you were to call it a religion, so what?
The reason you want atheism to be deemed a religion is it helps you deal with the clear factual and logical problems with your own religious beliefs, if the biggest critics of christianity were to be shown to also have irrational beliefs its a "whataboutism" that you can throw around to try to justify your own.
But atheism isn't irrational. It's simply requiring a reasonable level of evidence to believe the extraordinary claims of religious advocates. You belief in a person in jesus christ that doesn't exist in any historical records outside your own religious tracts, wasn't even recorded by your own christians for at least 40 years after his supposed death, with not a single eye witness testimony.
And believing him requires you to adopt the entire old testament that lists the horrific acts and awful moral guidance of the old testament god, which of course was Jesus himself according to most of the thousands of christian sects. Awful morals including advocating for the practice of slavery, rape, genocide, and murdering gay people, or even stoning unruly children.
These are your problems to live with and try to find ways to explain away or accept. Calling Atheism a religion doesn't cause us to share any of your burdens, in any manner.
Yes, Morphismus, it is. And that, in and of itself, proves that Atheism is Religion.
Alter2Ego
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"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.[/B]." ~ Exodus 21:20[/I][/B][/QUOTE]
Citation required.
Anti-theism could be described as a religion although we likely run into the problem of defining a category in which religions would argue that is not a religion as there is no prophet or tenants of faith.
Atheism which is the general fact that many people have a standard of evidence where they will not believe something unless it can be proven is by definition not a religion, it is an opinion about religion.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You should read your own links.
These are court rulings that declare that the rights afforded under the first amendment apply to atheists as well, treating it as equivalent to a religion, not making it one.
DesertCat:
Do you understand that the word "equivalent" means:
"having the same amount, value, purpose, qualities, etc.:"
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
That's not a response. The very definition of a-theism is simply not believing a god exists. Someone can be a gnostic atheist certain no god exists, or an agnostic atheist not believing theists have met their burden of proof.
But thats the extent of what it is. An atheist can be a progressive liberal, a conservative, a believer in UFOs as proof of alien intelligence, or even believe we all have spiritual powers. There is no atheist orthodoxy on any other belief or topic other than whether a god
DesertCat:
Atheism isn't irrational, you say. So the claim by Atheist Religionists that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident and that life came into existence by itself is your idea of being rational?
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
DesertCat:
Atheism isn't irrational, you say. So the claim by Atheist Religionists that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident and that life came into existence by itself is your idea of being rational?
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Who has said the Universe happened by accident?
And life came to existence by itself is rational? - Yes
DesertCat:
Do you understand that the word "equivalent" means:
"having the same amount, value, purpose, qualities, etc.:"
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Do you understand what equivalent for the purposes of legal protections afforded under the first amendment means?
You keep wanting to make a victory dance over legal rulings treating atheism as deserving the same legal protections as religions, and its unclear why. If Atheism truly was a religion, wouldn't it trivialize the very definition of that which you hold dear?
DesertCat:
Atheism isn't irrational, you say. So the claim by Atheist Religionists that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident and that life came into existence by itself is your idea of being rational?
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Atheism makes no claims about the origin of the universe, simply that those who claim gods exist don't meet their burden of evidence.
Just as you don't meet your burden of evidence for claiming the universe is fine-tuned. You are like Douglas Adam's puddle, who proudly proclaims the hole in which it lies "fine tuned" to its very existence.
As far as Abiogenesis, it is a scientific model with a good deal of supporting evidence. Organic proteins are found throughout the solar system in numerous asteroids, more complex proteins can be shown to generate from introducing energy in test containers of simpler organics, etc.
You are free to dispute whether evidence for Abiogenesis is compelling enough yet to accept as the best model of the origin of life. But you haven't offered a shred of evidence for your own model of bearded man in the sky makes everything including man, sticks man in garden with mischievous serpent, is surprised by man listening to serpent, punishes every human thereafter for one mans mistake, and then takes human form to sacrifice a weekend as a loophole for rules he created and controls.
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"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” - 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Oh, those evil infants and bad bad donkeys.
DesertCat:
Atheism isn't irrational, you say. So the claim by Atheist Religionists that our fine-tuned universe happened by accident and that life came into existence by itself is your idea of being rational?
Alter2Ego
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
lol fine tune ?
Gigantic waste of space .
Took over 4 billions year to have human life on earth .
Gigantic waste of time and travel between planets, solar systems or galaxies to communicate with any other living thing in the universe .
Only the strongest can survive -> evolution.
Space is near the lowest temperature the universe can be before attaining eternal death …
You got a funny definition of « fine tuning ».
Ps: whats the difference between having life comes from nothing and god comes from nothing ?
What makes one more rational then the other ?
