LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
1990 1st Round vs Hakeem
Worthy........ 28.0 on 65%
Magic.......... 19.0 on 47%
Hakeem...... 19.0 on 44%
^^^ Worthy was the best player in the series over Hakeem and Magic
This wasn't uncommon - Worthy was frequently the best player in the series over guys like Isiah, Hakeem, Magic, Malone - WHOEVER - he went toe-to-toe with Bird and might've outplayed him in the 85' Finals... Meanwhile, pippen was clearly a secondary or even tertiary producer that was never expected to play on the same level as Malo
Congrats Worthy for being able to play well against the 41-41 Rockets I guess and then being poor in the series that mattered.
So he scored the same as Pippen. Thoughts on the rebounding, assists, steals and general defense?
Worthy outplayed Isiah, Bird, Magic and all the best players in the league, as shown earlier.. I added the Hakeem series because somehow outplaying Isiah, Magic and Bird wasn't enough to show that Worthy was a higher-caliber player than Pippen.
But show me where Pippen outplayed a top 10 player in his 17-year career... I'll wait.. Pippen never did it while Worthy routinely did.
And again - high-scoring ball-domination is a primary reason for upsets when we look at NBA history, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Magic was so abnormally-destroyed by playing that way - keep in mind that MJ beat the same KJ-Suns that destroyed Magic's ball-domination, except with MVP Barkley added on top.. So that's how badly high-scoring ball-domination underperformed the expectation in the 1990 2nd Round - the Lakers should've stuck with what worked against Hakeem, aka Worthy-ball.. And btw, when you say that Hakeem had a 41-41 team - that's kind of how Hakeem did it, similar to Lebron but even a little worse - he always had crappy regular season records but infact had a long-standing organic juggernaut as we saw in 93', 94' and 95'.
So again, heading into the 91' Playoffs and Finals, Worthy was a historic dominator and FMVP with multiple chips like Kawhi - that's how he was viewed, while Pippen was literally a nobody and somewhat unknown like 2019 Siakam... And in my opinion, Pippen's player type is a Derrick Jones mold (a dunker) but he simply learned a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or flow points - this role is inherently inferior to the carry-job player and stats that Worthy had in the playoffs, where he was asked to outplay Hakeem, Bird, or Isiah in any given series.. And we saw Pippen's "derrick jones" player-type confirmed in Houston and Portland when he was worst than Jeff Green outside the system that he was coddled in.
lol at not commenting on my last post. I assume you are now conceding that Pippen was better than Worthy in the 91 playoffs.
It's okay. Bulls can be favorite against the Lakers and it makes no difference in the MJ GOAT argument.
Pippen and Worthy were about the same in 91. Worthy was on his way down and Pippen on his way up. Trying to say "but look at the resume" is obviously going to look better with more years.
If Draymond Green / Harden / insert other player that is on the downward trajectory and Shai played in a series this year, I'm picking Shai. Green / others having multiple championships, defensive players of the year, have previously outplayed other champions in years past doesn't mean much.
So he scored the same as Pippen. Thoughts on the rebounding, assists, steals and general defense?
Role player stuff - no one cared if Luka, Lebron, Magic or Jokic played defense... No one cared if Kobe passed or Isiah rebounded.
It was just a luxury that Jordan was the best or nearly the best on both ends from 23 to 35 years old and it's easy to cherry-pick certain guys to hold to this same standard.. But no one really did that except Jordan, at least not for a long period of time.
Furthermore, Worthy had 5 series of 5+ APG and averaged 4.4 APG for his FMVP playoff run in 88' - this includes 4.4 APG and 7.3 RPG against the Bad Boys in the Finals.. Any great frontcourt player in the 80's knew how to bang inside - rebounding was not in any way a deficiency for him and he was a good passer as well, while being one of the best scorers ever - his combination of volume and efficiency is unparalleled, while is iso and clutch game is known for being among the best ever.. Heading into the 91' Finals, Worthy was a historic player and still in his prime, while Pippen was just getting started and would never reach the carry-job caliber that Worthy had.
Pippen and Worthy were about the same in 91. Worthy was on his way down and Pippen on his way up. Trying to say "but look at the resume" is obviously going to look better with more years.
If Draymond Green / Harden / insert other player that is on the downward trajectory and Shai played in a series this year, I'm picking Shai. Green / others having multiple championships, defensive players of the year, have previously outplayed other champions in years past doesn't mean much.
No one thought Worthy was on a downward trajectory heading into the 91' Finals, and no one thought Pippen would win 6 rings that would make him a top 30 all-time player.
We have solid evidence of the consensus for how everyone felt in 1991:
Pippen wasn't viewed as an all-star by the fans, coaches or media (fans and coaches voted on the all-star rosters)... This is evidence of the consensus that you asked for earlier, while Worthy was All-NBA - of course the All-NBA is just media opinion, but Worthy was only 29 years old in 91', so a "downward trajectory" is absurd.
If you want to say that Worthy got injured and old in the 91' Finals - that's fine - but he wasn't viewed that way heading into the 91' Finals at 29 years old.. In hindsight, it was apparently a "thing" to get your career ended by 91' Jordan, since many guys were ended earlier than expected on that run, and while they were still in their prime - Isiah, Dumars, Rodman and Worthy were all below 30 years old, while Magic was 31 and runner-up for MVP.. Accordingly, the GOAT's 1st title run ended careers bitterly and earlier than expected for many top 30 players that were still in their prime - then he dominated for the next decade and made them watch.
People don't realize that previous eras saw natural development of incresaingly-superior brands of ball that would usurp and make obsolete previous brands.. Specifically, the Pistons overcame the superior talent of the Celtics/Lakers by developing a physical brand of ball, while the Bulls developed a finesse and ball movement brand that made the Pistons' physicality obsolete - that's why the Pistons never competed again after 91' and basically disappeared despite Dumars and Rodman peaking..
This organic development of better brands of ball doesn't exist in today's game, which is more of a talent-based approach, aka "more help needed", aka all-star team strategy.. The inferior chemistry and hoops instinct that today's players have is why they would get destroyed by the long-standing chemistry and effective basketball of previous eras.. It would be a much worse beat down than what our best faces against international comp.
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Pippen was an All-Star the year before and a snub that year. He has a higher WS, VORP and PER than Worthy in 91
In fact Scotties WS, VORP and PER that year was higher than any year in of Worthy's career.
He was also far better than Worthy on the defensive end (he was all NBA defense that year).
Scottie was good. On par with Worthy at worse. And he had definitely been better than Worthy in the playoffs in 91.
And he was young and getting better every season to date.
It's okay. Scottie can be great and MJ still the GOAT.
And before you say that WS, VORP and PER weren't a thing back then, who cares. It just shows that Scottie was good.
In this thread Worthy is the GOAT, Big Game Jamez, media darling.
NBA thread: not as good as Glen Rice
Congrats Worthy for being able to play well against the 41-41 Rockets I guess and then being poor in the series that mattered.
Wasn’t the same case for lebron in the 2007 ?
Wizard 41-41
Nets 41-41
Piston 53-29
Tough road to a final …
Then :
When it matters vs spurs ->
Game 1 14pts (4-16fg) .250
Game 2 25pts (9-21fg) .429
Game 3 25pts (9-23) .391
Game 4 24 pts (10-30fg) .333
But lebron gets goatish praise for that.
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Career Rankings
PER:
Anthony Davis...............3
Dwayne Wade.............21
Kyrie Irving'.................33
Kevin Love...................45
Chris Bosh'..................62
Scottie Pippen..........132
Horace Grant............185
WS/48:
Anthony Davis..........13
Horace Grant............55
Kevin Love.................57
Kyrie Irving...............68
Dwayne Wade..........70
Chris Bosh................76
Scottie Pippen........129
True Shooting:
Anthony Davis.........41
Kyrie Irving..............84
Chris Bosh...............89
Kevin Love...............92
Dwayne Wade.......183
D Rodman..............244
Scottie Pippen........NR top 250
Horace Grant..........NR top 250
OBPM:
Anthony Davis...........12
Kyrie Irving................13
Dwayne Wade...........25
Kevin Love.................29
Scottie Pippen...........90
Chris Bosh...............102
Horace Grant..........107
BPM:
Anthony Davis........12
Dwayne Wade........22
Kyrie Irving.............32
Scottie Pippen........35
Kevin Love..............48
Chris Bosh............134
Horace Grant.......176
Peak VORP
Dwayne Wade....... 19
Kevin Love............. 74
Scottie Pippen......102
Anthony Davis..... 140
Chris Bosh........... NR top 250
Kyrie Irving.......... NR top 250
Horace Grant....... NR top 250
Notice that all the real stats that are measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, WS/48, TS%, etc) correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams.
From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:
What players were most impacted by the changes?
Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton.... BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."
Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.
In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.
Lebron fans...
Pippen was an All-Star the year before and a snub that year. He has a higher WS, VORP and PER than Worthy in 91
In fact Scotties WS, VORP and PER that year was higher than any year in of Worthy's career.
He was also far better than Worthy on the defensive end (he was all NBA defense that year).
Scottie was good. On par with Worthy at worse. And he had definitely been better than Worthy in the playoffs in 91.
And he was young and getting better every season to date.
It's okay. Scottie can be great and
Do you think Hornacek is better than Klay?
Because the numbers say that Klay is a JOKE compared to Hornacek:
Regular Seasonhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html'............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Playoffshttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 tsBasketball-Reference.comJeff Hornacek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html'............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 tsBasketball-Reference.comKlay Thompson Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
Pippen had weak PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP (see stats above), even though these stats overrate steals, blocks and assists in the formula.. So despite Pippen's game favoring these formulas, he ranked far below AD, Wade, Kyrie or Love in these stats, as shown above.. I'm surprised you went the "PER" route with Pippen.. Are you aware that Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM)??.. Imagine dragging a teammate with 16.9 PER, 2.0 BPM, and 50% TS to the title - that's what MJ did in the 93' Playoffs - Pippen's PER, WS/48, TS, and pace-adjusted scoring was less than 14' Wade.
And Pippen was snubbed from the 91' all-star game because people realized he wasn't that good after the 1990 season - they realized that they made a mistake and corrected it in 1991.. Pippen only started making all-star teams again after winning titles - the winning spotlight restored his reputation even though he was still playing like garbage (17-20 system points on bad efficiency).
Larry Nance was better based on the advanced metrics like PER or WS/48, while also averaging about 3 blocks for his career - he was a Pippen-caliber player but lacked the winning spotlight (6 chips) to make him top 30 all-time like Pippen.
Ultimately, Pippen was a Derrick Jones-mold of player (just a dunker) who took 4 years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 points on bad efficiency - this doesn't compare to a franchise player like Worthy that could carry teams and outplay the best players in the league like Hakeem, Isiah or Bird.. There's no comparison between a dunker like Pippen and goat-level scorer like Worthy.
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Playoffs - Pippen vs Rice
98' Rice............... 23 on 44%
98' Pippen'......... 18 on 44%
99' Rice............... 18 on 55% (3rd option)
99' Pippen'......... 18 on 32%
In this thread Worthy is the GOAT, Big Game Jamez, media darling.
NBA thread: not as good as Glen Rice
Worthy often played on the same level as Bird, Hakeem or Isiah:
1985 Finals
Worthy...... 23.7 on 56%
Bird........... 23.8 on 44%
1990 1st Round
Worthy.......... 28.0 on 65%
Hakeem........ 19.0 on 44%
1989 Finals
Worthy......... 26 on 49%
Isiah............. 21 on 45%
But his stats and accolades were suppressed by being on a stacked team with 2 top 5 players of all-time
The best way to determine how good a player is would be to ignore stats and accolades, and just focus on their actual performance and demonstrations of high-level play.. This would include Worthy outplaying Bird, Isiah, and Hakeem in many series, and even his own teammates like Magic and Kareem...
Otoh, Glen Rice never outplayed anyone except maybe Scottie Pippen (see stats above)... Whooptiwhoop - the majority of SF's outplayed Pippen in his playoff career..
For the most part, Pippen only outscored opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ, otherwise he was destroyed at the SF matchup in the majority of series in his playoff career.
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Stop knocking KD's rings because what's wrong with KD's unprecedented advantage when Lebron enjoyed an unprecedented advantage for 6 years as the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team) from 2011-2016??
What's the appropriate way to respond to a rival that manufactured 3 chips in 6 years and favored talent (preseason favorite) for 6 straight years (11-16')?
Accordingly, there's nothing wrong with joining a hot regular season team like the Warriors that otherwise had a normal organic roster of 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing sidekick.. Anything less would be insufficient to overcome the massive talent edge of Lebron's latest "big 3".
So it's clear that kd did EXACTLY what he had to do:
Lebron > Malone but not by as much as people think because Lebron can't do what Malone did... People think lebron could score 36k as the roll man AND score 40k as a primary ball-handler, but it's just the latter - a legitimate big man skillset would've fit with Westbrook, Hughes, Wade, Ingram, and other ball-handlers, but horrific fits confirmed that he has a point guard skillset.... So again, whether Karl has a big man skillset or a PG skillset (Lebron), It's still just Karl Malone (vastly inferior to MJ.. or Kobe).
Lebron > Malone but not by as much as people think because
Because no.
At this point, I'd say a 7 day locking of this thread would be appropriate.
I loved how LeBron failed so hard with Wade that they won 2 titles and made the finals every year together. Epic fail!
I love me some Malone (I rank him higher than most), but that's so funny.
If we go by media opinion, it's a historic fact that Malone > Lebron from 33 to 35 years old (Malone essentially won 3 MVP in a row from 33 to 35):
33 years old
Malone........ #1 MVP........ 1st team defense...... barely lost to MJ/Pippen
Lebron......... #2 MVP........ no-all-defense........... record loss to KD/Curry
34 years old
Malone......... #2 MVP* ...... 1st team defense...... barely lost to MJ/Pippen
Lebron'......... #9 MVP.......... no all-defense........... lottery with Ingram/Rondo/Kuz
35 years old
Malone......... #1 MVP ...... 1st team defense...... lost to Isiah Rider
Lebron'......... #2 MVP........ no all-defense........... 2nd option title
* 2nd to MJ
How many points would Lebron average if he exclusively played the role or pop-man or shot post turnarounds?
He couldn't be MVP doing this..
Infact, Lebron is so bad at this style of play that he had worst-ever fits with ball-handlers like Westbrook, Hughes, or Ingram instead of the optimal fits that PF's typically have with ball-handlers (Lebron needs ready-made shooters like Kyrie or Mo)... Accordingly, Lebron has a point guard skillset - nothing more - his role-man game doesn't fit with Westbrook any better than Malone's point guard game would fit with Duncan.
Ultimately, if we stripped Lebron of his PG skillset and gave him a PF skillset, he would be a slightly-quicker version of Malone but not quite as physically-strong... Conversely, if we stripped Malone of his PF skillset and gave him a PG skillset, he would be a physically-stronger Lebron and still faster than Luka.
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2010 BOSH...... 6x all-star... 1x all-nba
2007 PAU......... 1x all-star... 0x all-nba
2010 WADE..... 9.2 bpm..... 28 per
2010 KOBE...... 4.4 bpm..... 21 per
I loved how LeBron failed so hard with Wade that they won 2 titles and made the finals every year together. Epic fail!
As you can see above, Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II... However, the "not 6, not 7" expectation became 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss.. That's the worst anyone could do.
Do you remember how great Wade was in 2009 and 2010?.. There was a contingent of people that strongly felt Wade deserved MVP in 09' and/or 10' - their feelings were validated when Wade was 1st option and team alpha in the 2011 Playoffs.. Wade had to manually-relinquish the alpha role to Lebron in 2012 for Lebron to be leader of the team - this was a well-documented event and story.. So everything was handed to Lebron, including the alpha role, and also his first title against 22-year old babies and West"brick" (the guy that lebron couldn't make the play-in with).. There's never been an NBA champion that wasn't physically-mature, yet Lebron gets to play babies for his first title.
If MJ teamed up with Kobe/Pau II, it would be unacceptable to go 2/4... It's amazing because the 00's East is the only conference in history that 1-star teams routinely won, yet this is the conference that Lebron decided to dilute by taking the top 3 players and putting them on 1 team...
So instead of FACING wade, kyrie or bosh, he faced Oladipo, baby Tatum and other weak comp while having his real comp on his own damn team.. frieking teammates.. the guy literally teamed up with his opponents... Wade was #2 across the board in 2010 (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP), so Lebron teamed up with the #2 producer, aka Magic teaming up with Bird.. Then they mostly lost... smh.. it's absurd that such a massive loser could be in the goat conversation.
From 97' to 99', Karl Malone had 3 consecutive first-team defense and 3 straight MVP's (except 2nd to MJ in 98'), which rivals Lebron's peak since Malone's losses to MJ could be considered 2 titles.. You guys use that kind of logic with lebron to excuse his Finals losses all the time.
Essentially, Lebron is Karl Malone except for the fact that he has a point guard skillset instead of a PF skillset - we know that lebron lacks a PF skillset because he has bad fits with other ball-handlers instead of the optimal fits that PF's normally have
but regardless of whether Karl has a PG skillset or a PF skillset, it's still just Karl Malone, aka inferior to MJ
Stop knocking KD's rings because what's wrong with KD's unprecedented advantage when Lebron enjoyed an unprecedented advantage for 6 years as the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team) from 2011-2016??
What's the appropriate way to respond to a rival that manufactured 3 chips in 6 years and favored talent (preseason favorite) for 6 straight years (11-16')?
Accordingly, there's nothing wrong with joining a hot regular season team like the Warriors that otherwise had a normal organic roster of 1 franchise player and a secondary-producing sidekick.. Anything less would be insufficient to overcome the massive talent edge of Lebron's latest "big 3".
So it's clear that kd did EXACTLY what he had to do:
And Lebron has low ring quality by virtue of a 2nd option ring in 2020 and playing babies in 2012.. All champions in history have been physically-mature, so no one gets credit for beating 22-23 year olds the way Lebron/Wade/Bosh did in 2012, or Duncan and company in 2007.
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2010 BOSH...... 6x all-star... 1x all-nba
2007 PAU......... 1x all-star... 0x all-nba
2010 WADE..... 9.2 bpm..... 28 per
2010 KOBE...... 4.4 bpm..... 21 per
I loved how LeBron failed so hard with Wade that they won 2 titles and made the finals every year together. Epic fail!
Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II, but the "not 6, not 7" expectation became 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss.. That's the worst anyone could do..
I’m just going to point out that he quote replied to the Malone is a child rapist post with how many MvPs he has.
