2024 World Series of Poker May 28th to July 17th ***No Spoilers***
The 2024 WSOP will take place at Horseshoe Las Vegas and Paris Las Vegas from May 28 to July 17, 2024, with the Main Event running from July 3 to July 17. The Main Event – poker’s undisputed freezeout world championship – will have four starting days, beginning on Wednesday, July 3. Players may also register directly on Day 2.
I'm not making excuses for her. I don't like or dislike her. I've barely seen her play.
I'm not even saying YOU specifically are being results oriented. But poker discussions especially about punting/blowups in aggregate are always super results oriented.
Person calls in a huge pot = punt /blow up.
Person folds= amazing bluff.
A really good example was the Matusow hand a year or two ago when his opponent raised a low flush on a paired board on the river, MM goes for it and stuffs it in. His opponent makes what's actually an atrocious call and people call it a punt.
It's boring at this point.
Serious question- if her opponent folds is anyone having this conversation about Foxen?
When has anyone ever made a big bluff in a big spot, gotten it through and have people say it was a bad play/punt?
We both know regardless of what a solver says, if her opponent folds AQ/A10 or even hero folds AJ everyone is saying what a sick play she made.
Let's give him AJ. We all know if he folds being she has KQ everyone with laugh at him and say what a terrible fold it is.
And if he calls with AJ and she has a set/straight or AK everyone will say what an idiot he is, he just pissed away a huge stack close to the final table blah blah blah.
If people want to have honest genuine discussions about what is or isn't a good bluff, the way to do so isn't to see whether or not someone folded and work backwards from there.
Take off those Foxen glasses Borg
The reason why people criticized that Matusow bluff a couple years ago was because he had very few chips behind aka no fold equity.
I'm not even saying YOU specifically are being results oriented. But poker discussions especially about punting/blowups in aggregate are always super results oriented.
Person calls in a huge pot = punt /blow up.
Person folds= amazing bluff.
Borg, are you in the chat during PokerGo or YouTube streams? What you described here NAILS it how know-it-all it collectively is.
[Player A four-bet shoves with KK for 50x effective. Player B has QQ.]
"Oh my God, fold"
"Easiest fold in the world, what a donk"
"I would have mucked by now and already been halfway to the bathroom"
"Is Negreanu still in?"
"B is the worst player ever if he calls this."
An hour later...
[Player A four-best shoves with AK for 50x effective. Player B has QQ.]
"Oh my God, call"
"Easiest call in the world, what a nit"
"I would have called by now and already been jerked off by the blonde on the rail"
"how do I change my name from Guest140923542?"
"B is the worst player ever if he folds this."
In all honesty, it's kind of entertaining.
I often think back to that crazy 2008 hand when Roberto Romanello bet-folded jacks full on the river to Greg Geller's kings full on a AJKTT board. (As a refresher, this had a single-raise preflop, check-check-check on both flop and turn. Romanello potted the river for a 18 BBs, Geller raised to 60 BBs, then after some deliberation, Geller promised to show if Romanello folds.)
Everyone – including Mike Matusow, the third player in the hand – raved about what an incredible laydown it was. To this day, I'm not sure if it's a great fold or a bad one that happened to be right. Romanello is 10 times the player I'll ever be, so it's probably the former. But it further illustrates how much knowing the cards and seeing the outcome dictates perception on "good play" versus "punt."
Borg, are you in the chat during PokerGo or YouTube streams? What you described here NAILS it how know-it-all it collectively is.
[Player A four-bet shoves with KK for 50x effective. Player B has QQ.]
"Oh my God, fold"
"Easiest fold in the world, what a donk"
"I would have mucked by now and already been halfway to the bathroom"
"Is Negreanu still in?"
"B is the worst player ever if he calls this."
An hour later...
[Player A four-best shoves with AK for 50x effective. Player B has QQ.]
Nah I don't have the patience to watch these tank fests but I'll watch highlights.
I just know how results oriented the poker world is and what geniuses people think they are when they have perfect information.
None of what you're saying about the chat during streaming is remotely surprising.
The reason why people criticized that Matusow bluff a couple years ago was because he had very few chips behind aka no fold equity.
The reason they criticized it is bc it didn't work.
His opponent made an awful call and MM has him beat 99 percent of the time ..
And that 99 percent everyone would say what a **** call he made.
This is Brian Kim's fifth Main cash: 2012, 2018, 2021, 2022 and 2024. So five in 13 years. Tamayo has also been around the block: 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015, 2018 and 2019, with that 21st in 2009 being his previous best.
This is where I kind of want rjen's database – curious to see how this all rates in the post-boom era. At quick glance, it sounds pretty good. Just to use the all-time bracelet winners list as a reference, I did another round of half-assed internet research. This is not a complete l
I can't NOT respond to this after you've done all that work!
Most ME cashes 2003-24 (didn't check nicknames for this year so might have missed a couple who got their 7th in 2024):
10: Allen Cunningham
8: Aditya Agarwal, Cliff Josephy, J.C. Tran, Roland Israelashvili, Vitaly Lunkin
7: Andrew Ostapchenko, Chanracy Khun, Chris Overgard, Hans Joachim Hein, Jamie Shaevel, Johnny Chan, Jon Turner, Jonathan Tamayo, Josh Kay, Tyler Cornell
P.S. to WT: please contact me off-forum. Would love to chat.
Not really. Litsou came in 18th in 2022 but outside of that, the last woman standing has finished fairly low in recent years like in the 60s. One year it was even outside the top 100. 2021 I think.
This was the first year since 2012 with a real sweat of it happening.
Last Woman Standing 2003-24:
- 2003: Annie Duke 47th ($20,000)
- 2004: Rose Richie 98th ($20,000)
- 2005: Tiffany Williamson 15th ($400,000)
- 2006: Sabyl Cohen-Landrum 56th ($123,699)
- 2007: Maria Ho 38th ($237,865)
- 2008: Tiffany Michelle 17th ($334,534)
- 2009: Leo Margets 27th ($352,832)
- 2010: Breeze Zuckerman 121th ($57,102)
- 2011: Erika Moutinho 29th ($242,636)
- 2012: Gaelle Baumann 10th ($590,442)
- 2013: Jackie Glazier 31th ($229,281)
- 2014: Maria Ho 77th ($85,812)
- 2015: Kelly Minkin 29th ($211,821)
- 2016: Gaelle Baumann 102th ($49,108)
- 2017: Yuan-Yuan Li 105th ($53,247)
- 2018: Kelly Minkin 50th ($156,265)
- 2019: Jill Bryant 116th ($59,295)
- 2020: Maria Ho 43th ($35,194)
- 2021: Dragana Lim 64th ($95,700)
- 2022: Efthymia Litsou 18th ($323,100)
- 2023: Estelle Cohuet 68th ($130,300)
- 2024: Kristen Foxen 13th ($600,000)
Outside top 100 four times: 2010, 2016, 2017, & 2019.
It was a massive punt. That board drastically favored UTG’s range over the BB range. Plain and simple. The only thing I can think of is she may have figured him drawing to a flush since she had no blockers but even that is a stretch. She just punted.
That being said, it’s easy for us to critique her as we sit here in the comfort of our homes, well-rested, well-fed and relaxed with nothing on the line. That was a high-pressure situation with a massive fatigue factor setting in.
It’s unfortunate it happened and by no means speaks to any overall lack of skill on her part. She’s not only the best female player currently on the scene but she’s one of the best players overall, male or female.
But then again, that's an era when many people still walked around with a checkbook, at least if they were headed to a grocery or department store.
I still use checks for a couple things. I recently had to order new checks. Checks from the bank cost like $1 each now! That's insane.
Oh, but there's discount checks. Just give FlyByNightCheapChecksStartup.com all your banking information.
The reason they criticized it is bc it didn't work.
His opponent made an awful call and MM has him beat 99 percent of the time ..
And that 99 percent everyone would say what a **** call he made.
It’s fair to criticize a bluff that did not work since you are playing against humans that can make mistakes and this would be a read and possible necessary adjustment
Also as others mentioned the money left behind matters
Given that there’s a subjective side on reads it’s natural this stuff would be results oriented
Imagine saying the FT is bad and then wanting some boring pro like Rast.. Lena900 is 100x the more watchable player if you want to watch good professionals play.
The reason they criticized it is bc it didn't work.
His opponent made an awful call and MM has him beat 99 percent of the time ..
And that 99 percent everyone would say what a **** call he made.
The instant reaction was mixed, but skewed towards "decent bluff, but not enough chips to actually get a fold".
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/ne...
tbf, the guy with the small flush knew he could only beat a bluff there at the end so it isn't terrible in that sense. but the guy had a huge stack and it wasnt much more to call so in the end yeah it was bad.
Looked like a good bluff at first but as mentioned not enough chips to make it work. If he has 2-300k more I think it works. I didn't catch the hand from the start though so not sure if he can even rep what he's trying to rep.
Line was atrocious. Mike got reraised on the river and then shoved for only 200k more. Matusow's line made zero sense.
If he had had another 100,000 or more it may have worked. It was just too good of a price.
Lots of emphasis on WHY the bluff was problematic, and not much on the outcome.
You were one of the people who liked the play initially, so maybe that's why you remember it as good.
Yea I was expecting to see a hand then trash matusow but **** it he went for it,put the guy in an extremely tough spot with his hand -maybe I'm too used to plo but I think it works a lot and you have to go for it to run deep in this tournements
Sometimes you get caught
It's much better to go for it and die like this than just bleed off chips never giving yourself a chance to win unless you get absolutely smashed with the deck
In the moment a lot of people had problems with the technical aspects of the play, which brings us back to the relevant discussion.
A play being good or bad is not just about the outcome or the courage involved, but also about whether there's a logical justification for the move. I don't know that either of these is a spot you have to take.
Just saw that Tonka was on Lenas rail. Tonka has spent quite some time in Sweden, he either has or had a swedish gf. Wonder if Tonka and Lena may have some swapped percents
The instant reaction was mixed, but skewed towards "decent bluff, but not enough chips to actually get a fold".
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/ne...
Lots of emphasis on WHY the bluff was problematic, and not much on the outcome.
You were one of the people who liked the play initially, so maybe that's why you remember it as good.
In the moment a lot of people had problems with the technical aspects of the play, which bring
But the entire discussion is because the plays didn't work.
Are we pretending people never get away with suicidal bad bluffs?
I think there are a lot of interesting hands worth discussing. But they don't stem from people having perfect information and going backwards from there.
Meet The Final Table of the 2024 World Series of Poker Main Event
Tomato tomayo guy if he runs QQ into something and busts OMG what an idiot he could've just folded to the final table!
Lol, no. With QQ and ~30bbs any decent person would have just chalked it up to a cooler/he was playing for the win. Hell even if he 3b/folds I don't think many people criticize the decision.
What makes it so bad is he just open folds to a single raise. He doesn't flat and take a flop, he doesn't 3b and then face a decision, he just folds. This "Well he made the final table" nonsense doesn't justify every single hand he played to get there. Reminds me of Walton's punt with 88 last year and so many dolts were like "well he got there by playing that way!". Just, no.
The thing about the Foxen hand is there were other hands where she was really strong with 2pair+, and took a XC-XC line. Either to slowplay or she was being cautious due to the board texture.
Now she takes a XC-XJam line with a hand that I'm not sure ever wants to do so and it's just very out of character from what we saw in previous hands.
Holy xxxx, I'm just now watching the Rast bust out had. Calling off against the cold 4 bet with AQo with 17bb behind??? I don't know what's worse........this or Foxen's.
The thing about the Foxen hand is there were other hands where she was really strong with 2pair+, and took a XC-XC line. Either to slowplay or she was being cautious due to the board texture.
Now she takes a XC-XJam line with a hand that I'm not sure ever wants to do so and it's just very out of character from what we saw in previous hands.
Good point. If she had had the nuts there with Q/10, she probably is not ripping the turn like that based on her previous plays.
