Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
Sure doesn't look innocence to me. This is the look of someone who know they just been handed something illegal and must hide it before the cop find out.
If you drop your earbud your first instinct would be to put it in your pocket not immediately find someone to hand it to.
These dudes couldn't be more sketchy if they tried.
When Jorstad won, his good friend Pads was back at home running sims and relaying the info to Jorstad's rail, who would have passed it along to Jorstad. Do people think that he is an illegitimate champ too? Maybe so if we knew about it at the time. We know about this situation because they were so open with it, having the laptop just sitting on the rail for the world to see.
WTF. One person to a hand is only a sweet memory.
No he didnt. After the last all in, we was standing on the rail with cameras circling him, no ear bud. I believe that one shot that looks like an earpiece is just light reflecting off his ears. His hood was up and down all night. McKeehen had his one ear bud in the whole time, except when it fell out during the celebration. Passing if off instead of pocketing it looks weird but also he is at the center of a mob surrounding Tamayo.
I think the most important thing to reiterate is that barri
The implication is that they were using some sort of solver in the tournament area which was supposed to be against the rules, not whether it was during a hand or between hands.
Someone pointed out he was running to the rail while all ins were being dealt so that would technically be during a hand anyways.
If the rules so clearly allowed this, why didnÂ’t anyone else at the final table have a team helping them? Why didnÂ’t we see this behavior at every single final table leading up to the main? Obviously most players understood that this behavior was against the rules. WSOP should 100% make a statement and take responsibility to announcing rules which they had no intention of clarifying nor enforcing.
At this point, anyone trying to justify this or rationalize that it didn’t give much of an edge look really bad.
Epsen also responded to Pads saying that it wasn’t him. So Pads is talking about someone else and might not even be telling the truth. Either way, it’s not really relevant what happened in the past.
When Jorstad won, his good friend Pads was back at home running sims and relaying the info to Jorstad's rail, who would have passed it along to Jorstad. Do people think that he is an illegitimate champ too? Maybe so if we knew about it at the time. We know about this situation because they were so open with it, having the laptop just sitting on the rail for the world to see.
Wasn't Pads on the rail?
Players consulting during play is just BS. Hope it's history from now on. Or do people need to see players mingling with friends? They can shout from a distance.
The implication is that they were using some sort of solver in the tournament area which was supposed to be against the rules, not whether it was during a hand or between hands.
Someone pointed out he was running to the rail while all ins were being dealt so that would technically be during a hand anyways.
If the rules so clearly allowed this, why didnÂ’t anyone else at the final table have a team helping them? Why didnÂ’t we see this behavior at every single final table leading up to the main?
Because not everyone has the same attitude IRT to ethics or playing within the spirit of the game.
Just a random curioisty
would the TV mic pic up on someone whispering to themself ? for example a hand over the mouth and whispering to your self behind the hand ?
Yeah. And it's pretty obvious IMO but there's nothing that would stick in a court of law. Best case scenario we just ban these clowns from future WSOP events.
I'm not sure what would happen if gaming got involved.
Nevada GC specifically is very strong and has rules against electronic devices while playing.
IMO a player consulting a coach or assistance during "play" (ie all time except breaks) should be prohibited. It is the most sound, simple rule that addresses basically all of this nonsense.
What a player does during breaks cannot be enforced, hence no rule there.
As a rec who mostly plays with other recs these days, I agree with this. We can't trust a team of pros to not find other non-laptop methods of obtaining this data, either through phone apps or receiving the data through texts from someone running sims at home. Poker should be p v p and these teams of pros don't need to be coaching between every hand. Could be tough to enforce completely but would be easy to enforce during a TV table. And the threat should dissuade most people who want to do this.
Sure, during the break they will go ham with this if they want to, but this will still provide some strong limits on these shenanigans.
No contact with the rail. No electronic devices on the rail. Those 2 rules would improve the situation.
As of 2008 Women’s tour outside of majors allowed coaching via hand signsls or verbal but no conversations.
Men Tour trial began in 2022 mid season. US Open was first major to allow it then in 2023 the other three followed.
So unless dropped in 2024, I don’t really follow any sport closely anymore, it is allowed except maybe women grand slam tournaments.
No contact with the rail. No electronic devices on the rail. Those 2 rules would improve the situation.
What would also improve the situation is WSOP not being total amateurs. Rules that are announced once but not written down anywhere, much less provided to the players in advance? Total amateur hour.
All the rules in the book where the penalties are "may"? Ridiculous.
WSOP needs to get itself together and get serious about running a competition.
McKeehen’s hug is suspect to me now.
I initially thought he was just socially awkward and wasn’t quite sure how to hug someone but now I’m wondering if he was feeling around for other devices and/or telling him something secretive.
McKeehen isn’t smiling and beaming with pride or anything. He looks very serious and stern as though he’s on a mission of some sort.
That hug thing has never sat right with me and I think something shady was going on.
Or not, what the heck do I know?
IMO a player consulting a coach or assistance during "play" (ie all time except breaks) should be prohibited. It is the most sound, simple rule that addresses basically all of this nonsense.
What a player does during breaks cannot be enforced, hence no rule there.
How do you stop it but still allow interaction with rail? Serious question. WSOP and sponsors want interaction with rail. Once you allow interaction it is difficult to exclude coaching. We know it has been going on for almost 20 yrs (2006, Gold/Chan) but probably much longer than that.
WSOP/sponsors want interaction w/ rail? Sounds kinda weird to me, but wtv.
They can limit it to x feet distance, no longer than x seconds, visible evidence that rail is not providing assistance/coaching, etc. 0.0001% of all tournaments are WSOP main event anyways, so of course it can be managed.
If a spectator violates the rule, then that person is warned. Another violation would subject the spectator to ejection from the event. This would include things like shouting "his range is x when he calls your raise", and not "you got it now!".
What would also improve the situation is WSOP not being total amateurs. Rules that are announced once but not written down anywhere, much less provided to the players in advance? Total amateur hour.
All the rules in the book where the penalties are "may"? Ridiculous.
WSOP needs to get itself together and get serious about running a competition.
I'm guessing WSOP prefers some ambiguity in the rules. That way they can err on either side as the situation favors them.
Let Hellmuth berate dealers, but give an orbit timeout to a player asking a question.
Poker is a game where the players need to police it themselves. Back in the old days they made holes in the desert. That might be a little excessive response to a pump fake but it’s up to that dude not to fall for it. Failing that he can address it in a manner of his choosing, not really up to community to dump a milkshake over someone’s head or whatever online community decides to dish out as punishment
And unless WSOP themselves find someone guilty of cheating they need to stay out of it.
I d
The problem is the framework people are using depends on the player.
You claim that the WSOP have no problem with the Foxens so we shouldn’t either. Ok then , the WSOP has no problem with Jake Schindler or Ali I so we should stay out of it . Yet someone else brought them up for the millionth time and my post was in response to that.
You’re also arguing Kahle Burns should have protected himself rather than it be done by officiants. By that logic, I’ve seen it argued Jordan Griff made a major blunder by not hiring a coaching team on his day off knowing he was playing for millions the next day.
Softplay is a huge form of cheating. If you are at a table and everyone softplay each other except you, you’re screwed. It’s far more unambiguous cheating than checking software between hands, which was actually explicitly allowed in some previous rule sets.
If you offer an ICM chop, and someone declines, are you now allowed to cheat? I missed that exception in the rules. Yet repeatedly it gets brought up in the Foxens defense as if it has any relevance. The Foxens put themselves in that situation, nobody else did, and the simple solution is to not softplay each other.
Now, I realize this might get misunderstood as me resurfacing the Foxens debate which is not my intent. My larger point is that the “cheating in poker” conversation always gets colored by various politics. As someone else noted, Chris Brewer got the exact same accusation as Jake yet nobody ever brings it up. Martin Kahbrel gets slandered by poker news with no evidence while the Foxens have an army of apologists for what happened on camera.
It’s crystal clear to me that Cary Katz who owns poker go and Tony G who owns Poker News have a positive bias towards Foxen and a negative one towards Jake and Kahbrel. And so much downstream discussion is influenced by that.
We can’t have good discussions game integrity when the discussions themselves so often lack integrity.
I'm guessing WSOP prefers some ambiguity in the rules. That way they can err on either side as the situation favors them.
Let Hellmuth berate dealers, but give an orbit timeout to a player asking a question.
And that is total amateur hour.
Write a specific set of rules with specific consequences and stick to it. Anything else leads to the inevitable perception that you're at best inconsistent and at worst favoring some players over others.
the rail and tamayo are typical scum bag grinders.
don't care what the ethics or rules are would just love to see those douches get DQ'd after the fact.
The problem is the framework people are using depends on the player.
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Softplay is a huge form of cheating. If you are at a table and everyone softplay each other except you, you’re screwed. It’s far more unambiguous cheating than checking software between hands, which was actually explicitly allowed in some previous rule sets.
If you offer an ICM chop, and someone declines, are you now allowed to cheat? I missed that exception in the rules. Yet repeatedly it gets brought up in the Fo
Poker, like most games, is imperfect. Over time games are improved with development of rules to reduce chance of unfair play.
Years ago spouses were not allowed to play at the same table. Not sure when, but it seems that rule is gone. People thought Bobby Fisher was crazy when he accused the Russians of soft play in tournaments to determine chess world champion. Turned out he was right all along.
If soft play can be stopped, then by all means put the necessary rules in. Unfortunately I don't see any obvious rule. Perhaps a year ban for clear evidence of soft play in an event over x$. But then we would need agreement amongst the organizers over enforcement, which seems unlikely.
Poker, like most games, is imperfect. Over time games are improved with development of rules to reduce chance of unfair play.
Years ago spouses were not allowed to play at the same table. Not sure when, but it seems that rule is gone. People thought Bobby Fisher was crazy when he accused the Russians of soft play in tournaments to determine chess world champion. Turned out he was right all along.
If soft play can be stopped, then by all means put the necessary rules in. Unfortunately I don't see a
Players aren't legally protected from being allowed to play in casinos poker rooms etc.
You're never going to stop all forms of cheating.
You're never going to stop all forms of slow play.
That doesn't mean you shouldnt try and ban offenders when they're caught.
With hole card cams it can make cases of soft play or collision more obvious. When people soft play for example with hole cards known it's obvious they'll do worse when they aren't known.
You don't need agreement among organizers.
For example if wsop banned these 3 guys that doesn't mean wpt has to.
They're making WSOP look terrible and look like idiots even if WSOP helped out a lot with this.
A private business, any private business, doesn't need to issue a warning if you're bad for business and they don't want you as a customer anymore.
