Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
Where are the Chris Brewer accusations?
Looks like he was banned from GG. Found this response from Chris. Seems like quite a different reaction to the ones we got from Ali and Jake.
That is the minimum of what they were doing, generating charts based on the current tournament situation and using them for ranges.
Do you think they were also creating player profiles? Similar to how HUDs would in online poker? Tamayo could have hand instant access to VPIP, 3 bet % etc.. just by glancing at the laptop on the rail.
Do you think they were also creating player profiles? Similar to how HUDs would in online poker? Tamayo could have hand instant access to VPIP, 3 bet % etc.. just by glancing at the laptop on the rail.
Yeah sure. Is there software that generates ranges based on player profile? There is all lot they can do with software or human assistance on hands in progress.
Was this just hu or was he doing it the whole final table?
Individually, each of Tamayo, McKeehen, and Nitsche have a massive experience and skill advantage over Griff. Without collaborating or using any between-hand solver analysis. But that wasn't enough for them. It wasn't enough to embrace the gamble and the grind and see if Tamayo could use his edge to overcome variance and beat Griff. No, they had to pool their collective skill and experience to work together AND they had to use a solver between hands. It was three robot pros and their computer software against an amateur with $30k in career tournament winnings and a pretty big set of balls.
It's disgusting, and rather than their condescending and tone-deaf defenses, Tamayo, McKeehen, and Nitsche should feel humiliated and ashamed. But they are obviously not capable of feeling shame. They are QQ-folding vampires, a massive net-negative for the game and ecosystem of poker.
In contrast, Lena crashing and burning was a tragedy. Despite being primarily an online player, he was a fun and engaging swashbuckler with plenty of gamble. He leaned back on his rail, nary a laptop in sight, and embraced the drama of the moment as the all-in hands were dealt. He was the type of pro whose victory would have benefited the game and ecosystem of poker.
Only someone who is laughably behind the times would argue this in 2024... Putting in information between hands in a solver to generate perfect pre flop charts for the exact situation you are in is just as much cheating as using it in hands.
So I guess Nitsche is winning the ME in 2033
Chance Kornuth slid his chips forward in a clear calling motion then stopped before they crossed the line. Obviously to check for a reaction from his opponent and a clear angle. He should have been forced to make the call but he wasnt.
And this is why poker players need to also police poker.
It absolutely should be a call but you might not get it ruled at the table.
So if you know Chance (or anyone you're playing with ) pulls crap like this tell everyone at the table so they can be on the lookout for it and not get scammed.
And this is why poker players need to also police poker.
It absolutely should be a call but you might not get it ruled at the table.
So if you know Chance (or anyone you're playing with ) pulls crap like this tell everyone at the table so they can be on the lookout for it and not get scammed.
Allow this kind of stuff. Fake calls, string bets, showing your hand, acting out of turn on purpose, hiding big chips behind the stack etc. Widen the array of skills that can be used and not just "good fundamental poker".
What about the third scenario. Generating ranges to show what is correct for the next hand? It's not the current hand, it's not the previous hand. Is this ok?
Correct. It wasn’t RTA as it wasn’t about the current hand (assuming no earbud). But using a solver entering recent hand data to make “optimal” adjustments on how to play the next hand is against the start of tournament admonishing and probably against NGC regs.
Maybe it was within the rules. If so then it is a HUGE ANGLE and horribad for game. If it was outside the rules, then obv it was cheating and still horribad. I have comp,etc confidence WSOP will attempt to prevent similar for the future. They might fail but will try.
As to NGCregs, what standing is necessary to ask for NGC to step in? Does it have to be Griff? Lena? Final table? Anyone in tournament? Just a group of concerned, high profile people?
As to NGCregs, what standing is necessary to ask for NGC to step in? Does it have to be Griff? Lena? Final table? Anyone in tournament? Just a group of concerned, high profile people?
You could always get in touch with them yourself and ask them. I’m sure they would know better than anyone here.
IANAL but I'm pretty sure that if you went to the same casino where this took place and used a computer to optimize your blackjack decisions, even if you only used the computer between hands, you'd be lucky to be out of prison by the next election.
Not a fair comparison. Table games have a very clear and strict no phones/electronic devices policy whereas poker is much more lenient regarding electronics. Which is sort of why we're in this mess to begin with.
Just a poor comparison in general since the casino probably wouldn't give a **** if you stepped away from the table and used a computer to optimize your decisions in a game where they have the edge. Hell, you can pull out those strategy cards at the table and they don't care.
Obviously that was way beyond of what should be allowed, it's essentially the same as having a chess computer between each turn that tells you possible moves
Maybe they thought the ME was kind of an online tournament, with the common "enhancement"? Live just better for the cameras, not important
Just a random curioisty
would the TV mic pic up on someone whispering to themself ? for example a hand over the mouth and whispering to your self behind the hand ?
This varies greatly. If memory serves, the WSOP equips each player with a lavalier, with the gain set to pick up normal conversation. Based on what you describe, whispering behind your mic would muffle the sound pretty well. I assume you're doing it so softly that even your neighbor in the next seat can't hear you.
Not a fair comparison. Table games have a very clear and strict no phones/electronic devices policy whereas poker is much more lenient regarding electronics. Which is sort of why we're in this mess to begin with.
Just a poor comparison in general since the casino probably wouldn't give a **** if you stepped away from the table and used a computer to optimize your decisions in a game where they have the edge. Hell, you can pull out those strategy cards at the table and they don't care.
It's not a casino policy, it's the law.
I'm pretty darn sure they would care.
Like, if you use a computer to track a roulette wheel, I think you're in trouble even if you don’t successfully gain an advantage.
Same for what cards came out in BJ.
I don't see how it's any different to use a computer to find tendencies in another poker player than vs finding them in a wheel or a deck of cards. That is, if they were creating a HUD type profile.
You can use a little card with basic bj strat. I don't look up such things on my phone, though I doubt you'd be in trouble. A phone is a device and better safe than sorry.
If you are using a computer to account for dynamics in the game and to give you the best strat moment to moment in a BJ game, I'm pretty sure you will go to prison if caught. Web says 1-6 years.
I'm sure it's legal to count cards and such things with your brain and pretty, pretty sure it's illegal to do it with a computer.
I don't see how this differs from using a computer to figure out icm, GTO etc as blinds change and whatever.
Other than the fact that casinos are all against cheating, while it always seems half the poker community condones it.
